En Negro

[notebook.fix]

Gillo, I'm now wondering about your ability to reason & think.

You make snap assumptions & I think you need to pause & ponder what people are saying here just a little longer before you jump to REACT in a defensive manner.

We have lived in other countries & we have seen better ways.

I AM not an AMERICAN.
I DID NOT just land here.
I AM AN ARGENTINIAN & cause I think you are also an Argentinian I have to be honest & say that I am embarrassed by what you write.

Survival of the fittest is not the argument....it's Political Survival of the Corrupt Political Party that labels itself 'Peronist' who wave the flag of socialism to the poor & uneducated....promising them the dream of a social utopia that DOES NOT EXIST ANYWHERE ON THIS MUD BALL in order to con them into voting for a 'regurgitated' Evita/Cristina.

They control the middle class cause they know the poor & uneducated people represent a higher proportion of the population and so they use numbers to control & dominate the agenda at all levels.

You cry & scream about social justice but you look the other way when the Fed the Gov opens the door to a flood of MercoSur peasants who cannot read or write.. these people are overwhelming our social support infrastructure in Capital & Provincia... These poor people are then given voter ID permits so that they can be trucked in on voting day...at the same time the Gov passes new laws designed to make life hell for any educated persons from Europe, US, Australia etc etc who would LOVE to integrate into this society & become part of it like my European FATHER did.

Why don't they want smart & educated citizens?

Why don't we talk about the real problem of migration from these countries?

Why does the Gov keep bribing $$$ the underclass to multiply OUT OF CONTROL while the middle class are threatened & scared off (BRAIN DRAIN! - Look it up!!) with a rising crime rate, bad services, punitive taxes etc etc etc!?!?!

"How Dare you even think of starting a Business in ARgetina!!!??? ...We the K Gov & our socialist hotheads will ensure that you regret the day you thought of it!!!!!!!!!!"

What do they want us to become? Another Nigeria?!

The Ks have have full control & discretion of 'La$ Reserva$' in this election year...doesn't this worry you more than those 'Evil Capitalist Employers' ????

You say you don't support the Ks but you certainly seem to support most of the ideology they feed to the others...WHY?

Also, coming from the US you might consider the Socialist/Capitalist dogma debate over, but its far from it. Hell, like someone posted here you didn't all complain when the government came in rescue of banks and other financial institutions.

I don't necessarily agree than applying the "survival of the fittest, the rest can die" model will be the best, or what I want for the future.

 

[Guillo]

Gillo, I'm now wondering about your ability to reason & think.

I could say exactly the same.

You make snap assumptions & I think you need to pause & ponder what people are saying here just a little longer before you jump to REACT in a defensive manner.

Read back to what I've written. I wont take responsibility for what emotion YOU put in my messages. Reading comprehension ftw.
I was just pointing out reality related to the topic discussion, as I have lived it.

We have lived in other countries & we have seen better ways.

I AM not an AMERICAN.
I DID NOT just land here.
I AM AN ARGENTINIAN & cause I think you are also an Argentinian I have to be honest & say that I am embarrassed by what you write.

I recommend the ignore list then. It will filter all my posts.

The fact that you wont share my opinions doesn't affect me at all and wont make me stop posting them. I actually find the discussion here quite interesting and smart and makes me thing a lot, so I'm not giving that up just because you feel like jumping in to censor me.

Survival of the fittest is not the argument....

Have you heard of the US health insurance system?
There's the harder capitalism in the world for you.

it's Political Survival of the Corrupt Political Party that labels itself 'Peronist' who wave the flag of socialism to the poor & uneducated....promising them the dream of a social utopia that DOES NOT EXIST ANYWHERE ON THIS MUD BALL in order to con them into voting for a 'regurgitated' Evita/Cristina.

On this, I agree with you.

But the fact that this bunch of thieves "say" they care of left leaning principles, doesn't make the left leaning government less valid or viable.
And I'm not talking of a "Republica Bolivariana de Venezuela" but of a model more similar to Europe democracies. They are not the same.

They control the middle class cause they know the poor & uneducated people represent a higher proportion of the population and so they use numbers to control & dominate the agenda at all levels.

Yes, and why do you tell me this? I never defended this guys. Because they say (dont act) as if they are after the same, it doesn't make the principles automatically bad. It just means they are a bunch of corrupt undemocratic thieves looking to stay in power at whatever cost.

You cry & scream about social justice but you look the other way when the Fed the Gov opens the door to a flood of MercoSur peasants who cannot read or write..

Yes! Build a wall on the north so those "negritos de mierda" cannot come through.

these people are overwhelming our social support infrastructure in Capital & Provincia...

And they also do the jobs you dont want to do.
Well, except Narcos probably.

These poor people are then given voter ID permits so that they can be trucked in on voting day...at the same time the Gov passes new laws designed to make life hell for anyone educated from Europe, US, Australia etc etc to integrate into this society.

Look at it the other way around. How much would they welcome US?

Why don't they want smart & educated citizens?
Why don't we talk about the real problem of migration from these countries?
Why does the Gov keep bribing $$$ the underclass to multiply while the middle classes are being scared off with a rising crime rate, bad services, punitive taxes etc?

Omg those uneducated people breeding!

The Ks have have full control & discretion of 'La$ Reserva$' in this election year...doesn't this worry you more than those 'Evil Capitalist Employers' ????

Of course it does. But that doesn't mean it clouds all my judgement and automatically disallows me from seeing holes in other peoples arguments and expectations, and specially discuss topics without going back to the same all the time.

You say you don't support the Ks but you certainly seem to support most of the ideology they feed to the others...WHY?

Because I believe that the left leaning principles have as much merit and possibilities as the hard capitalist one, it doesn't matter if these bunch of corrupts use the same flags.
You were calling me dumb, but THAT eludes you?

 

[Ashley]

Ashley, when I talk about "third world wages" I'm comparing equivalent positions in the US market. The examples I usually bring is one I know of (IT, 1/3rd as much) but I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens in other kind of jobs.

On the other hand, I totally agree that the govt needs to control. I'm sure that many of the problems here are because law is not applied equally to everyone (because of corruption), and that's what needs to change if we want to be a real country.

Yeah, but provided those jobs are paid at good, national rates...what's the problem? Some salaries in the UK are almost 1/3 less than the same jobs in parts of Europe and the US...that's just how it goes. That is justified by all sorts of things, taxation, cost of living, etc, etc. I'm not necessarily an advocate of outsourcing - It's been responsible for massive job losses in Europe and the US but if it brings well-paid (locally) jobs to the local market, great for the local market!
Now if wages were as high in Argentina as the US or Europe, IT companies wouldn't come here...There is plenty of skilled workers elsewhere. If anything, these companies are investing in the country, the people, providing good, stable, well-paid (locally) jobs...something which a lot of local companies just aren't willing or able to do.
My husband works in IT here for an international company that has outsourced to Argentina...and he earns a pretty decent wage for here...and more than twice what he was paid when he worked for a local IT firm!

 

[clooz]

Why don't they work for a company that profit shares and gives great pay and benefits? In my Silicon Valley hometown there are many, and they are expanding all over the world. Christina sends delegations there to get companies interested in setting up shop. Yet few are doing so, and boards like this play a role.

Silicon Valley is outsourcing to India and China whenever and as fast as it can to cut labor costs. CA is bankrupt. Benefits are not great. Real pay after tax has been falling for over a decade. How about a better example of a sustainable and structurally more comparable work culture to aspire to? New Zealand? Canada?

 

[clooz]

well, you walk around BUenos Aires and you see dog shit everywhere.
the the streets are never cleaned

so where does the money go? government officials pockets.
piece of cake.

and cops, are mostly corrupted.

Why not a little balance? The side walks and gutters are cleaned regularly by street sweepers, and the garbage picked up nightly. The recycling is not as neat as some countries, but it happens to all the garbage, not just the stuff that people choose to separate themselves.

 

[jb5]

Clooz, Silicon Valley is quite sustainable. That companies are moving different parts of their operations to other places is because we are now living in a global economy and it makes no sense to do them there. The world is evolving, Silicon Valley's role now is to invent and develop the next big things and that will result in more good jobs in developing countries.

We are no longer living in vacuums which is the big issue with guillo's view of the world. No company will arrive in Argentina anytime soon that will pay US wages. Argentina can be one of the developing countries on the receiving end of solid jobs at local rates or it can get passed over in favor of countries with cultures that support foreign investors.

In India where a whole new solid middle class is now on firm ground they're kissing the ground that foreign companies made this happen. And now they get to start upping their wages because they have a solid infrastructure in place. Lower wage jobs can go to China now, they've moved up.

How Argentina will get far without foreign investment is a mystery I'm still waiting for Guillo to explain. The overwhelming poverty can't be solved in a vacuum.

 

[PabloAriel]

http://www.infoleg.gov.ar/infolegInternet/anexos/25000-29999/25552/texact.htm
You should do some research on how these laws were modified and also the context they were. That would clarify you why they are needed. Or you can just watch how things go on NOW on rural employees.

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/economia/2-162131-2011-02-11.html
http://english.telam.com.ar/index.p...orted-at-rural-site-in-salto&catid=34:society
http://english.telam.com.ar/index.p...-and-buenos-aires-provinces&catid=42:politics

 

[Napoleon]

A friend just wrote this earlier today:

the Argentine National Social Security Administration (ANSES) pays its employees in the black. Says it all, really.

Of course, I have no idea if this is true, but it wouldn't surprise me one iota.

PS- I haven't read one other post in this thread, so if this has been covered, then I blame Cristina.

 

[jaredwb]

http://www.infoleg.gov.ar/infolegInternet/anexos/25000-29999/25552/texact.htm
You should do some research on how these laws were modified and also the context they were. That would clarify you why they are needed. Or you can just watch how things go on NOW on rural employees.

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/economia/2-162131-2011-02-11.html
http://english.telam.com.ar/index.p...orted-at-rural-site-in-salto&catid=34:society
http://english.telam.com.ar/index.p...-and-buenos-aires-provinces&catid=42:politics

I don't think that slave labor has anything to do with what we have all been discussing. I'm sure everyone here agrees that slave labor is bad.

But, its nice to point out that much of the Yerba crop and other items mentioned in the articles is owned by Govt members and their Union thugs and Business partners.

 

[PabloAriel]

I was trying to point that having employees "en negro" is just a way of avoiding all the rights/obligations the employment relationship has. That being said, you can see how rural employees are getting exploited nowadays when there aren't any laws to support them.