En Negro

[Guillo]

The world is evolving, Silicon Valley's role now is to invent and develop the next big things and that will result in more good jobs in developing countries.

That sounds quite like some serious superiority complex.

More jood jobs in developing countries = Sweatshop production, like with the iPhone? How many suicides were there on that factory? Low level work?

How Argentina will get far without foreign investment is a mystery I'm still waiting for Guillo to explain. The overwhelming poverty can't be solved in a vacuum.

You tell me, you are moving in to Buenos Aires from Sillicon Valley. Or at least someone you know does.

As I already posted, by having a bright workforce with high value services. But under OUR conditions, and that means en blanco workers with proper compensation.
If the requirement to have foreign investment is sacrificing the local workers conditions, then, really, I'm really not interested in any investment you want to make doesn't matter how excellent it might be for your numbers. Some might not have the luxury to reject it, that's for sure.

Now, about ending corruption, and a clear firm fair rule set, with a proper exercise of the law, I'm totally in favor of, and I truly believe that the lack of those things is what its keeping us back.
On the other hand, I'm sure that my ideas of what rules are fair would probably not be the same ones you would prefer, though.

 

[Guillo]

Yeah, but provided those jobs are paid at good, national rates...what's the problem? Some salaries in the UK are almost 1/3 less than the same jobs in parts of Europe and the US...that's just how it goes. That is justified by all sorts of things, taxation, cost of living, etc, etc. I'm not necessarily an advocate of outsourcing - It's been responsible for massive job losses in Europe and the US but if it brings well-paid (locally) jobs to the local market, great for the local market!
Now if wages were as high in Argentina as the US or Europe, IT companies wouldn't come here...There is plenty of skilled workers elsewhere. If anything, these companies are investing in the country, the people, providing good, stable, well-paid (locally) jobs...something which a lot of local companies just aren't willing or able to do.
My husband works in IT here for an international company that has outsourced to Argentina...and he earns a pretty decent wage for here...and more than twice what he was paid when he worked for a local IT firm!

I don't totally agree that there are plenty of skilled IT workers everywhere. They are usually very sought after professionals in every country (specially talented ones).
On the other hand, I don't really mind about them paying good local salaries, en blanco. I do think that hiring people in negro is nothing short of exploitation of desperate people.
The point I'm trying to make: the costs of qualified workforce compared to their home US office is going to be cheaper even if they pay all the "en blanco" charges for equivalent labor, and the only thing differentiating them from the US pros will be their sense of superiority, so what are they complaining about?

 

[jb5]

Large foreign employers will of course pay en blanco, but what Ive heard from many is that the employers ask to be hired en Negro, something big companies not headquartered in Argentina can't do. I'm seeking highly educated employees, and most of them have figured out pension funds will be burned by their leaders in govt before they retire.

Superiority complex? Give me some time to hire in Argentina and I'll comment on where I find the best employees.

 

[Guillo]

Large foreign employers will of course pay en blanco, but what Ive heard from many is that the employers ask to be hired en Negro, something big companies not headquartered in Argentina can't do. I'm seeking highly educated employees, and most of them have figured out pension funds will be burned by their leaders in govt before they retire.

Superiority complex? Give me some time to hire in Argentina and I'll comment on where I find the best employees.

Well, highly educated employees will usually prefer to be a part of formal economy, but theres also the mercenaries that all they see is the total amount of their paycheck. And desperate people, of course.

Sup complex was related to your comment that Sillicon Valley will create and develop the new thing while the rest of the world is good enough for low level labor, as if the rest of the world is intrinsically inferior to the us guys. That's not the case, at least if you hire well. On the other hand, don't expect much of them if you treat them like second class employees.

 

[citygirl]

I thought I would add a side comment regarding this. I received a letter from a former employee this week who is planning on suing me for wrongful termination (even though he quit). Funny enough, I was talking about it with a good friend and his comment to me was "You hire them in blanco - and they sue you. You hire them in negro - and they sue you. And in both cases, chances are you'll pay out. So why bother in blanco - it just winds up costing you more because you're out all those taxes on top of whatever the employees try to sue you for." And I'm starting to see his viewpoint.

The sad thing is - when we received the letter - my lawyer said "Look, I know it's bullshit and so does he. Just pay him a month or two worth of salary and it will go away quickly. Otherwise we'll have to go to court and it's going to take time and be expensive."

The system is set up so that even if you're 100% in the right - as we are - it's cheaper to pay off the employee than defend yourself. And that's just sad.

FWIW - we are going to court with him because I refuse to pay out. It's wrong and I will defend myself in court. And we will win. It will however cost me a large amount of time and money to defend myself over a completely friviolous lawsuit.

For me personally, the saddest thing is that because of this and after looking at the amount of money we paid out last year - the salaries, cargas sociales, private healthcare costs for employees, the cost of doing business here (legal fees, accounting fees, bank fees, etc, etc), IVA and then the 35% corp income tax on whatever profit we have left over - I've made the decision that it just makes no sense to have the business here in Argentina.

We'll starting to look for a new hub for LATAM operations. Right now Brasil, Chile and Uruguay are the top three. And you know -it makes me sad. Will my small business leaving affect anyone? No one except my 10 or so employees, my providers who will lose a client, etc. But it sucks because Argentina is my home and I truly wanted to have the project here because I believe(d) in this country. We went in with our eyes wide open, did all the due diligence and we are still make money at the end of the day. But its simply too hard here and when faced with a gov't that makes it almost impossible and very financially punitive to do the right thing, (some) employees that have a very distrustful relationship with their managers and are quick to sue, a banking system that is convoluted at best and a disaster at worst and constantly rising costs - well, it's just no longer worth it for us. There are too many better, safer, cheaper, more efficient options elsewhere in LATAM.

Anyway.. just wanted to share my at the moment very bitter viewpoint. And say that while I'm glad I did/do everything en blanco because at least I can defend myself - it really at the end of the day didn't help me one bit. It cost me time, it cost me money and in the end, there was no benefit.

 

[French jurist]

The sad thing is - when we received the letter - my lawyer said "Look, I know it's bullshit and so does he. Just pay him a month or two worth of salary and it will go away quickly. Otherwise we'll have to go to court and it's going to take time and be expensive."

It's sadly the way it works here. I have the project of opening a French restaurant here and this aspect is what frightens me most.
After all, right now I'm working independantly, I don't have headaches, I just need to take care of my own income so why take the risk to live a stressful life and so on.

 

[ben]

This is the sad part. That at the end of the day, after the "Well it's our country, don't expect us to have to adjust to your system, if you want to be here respect our laws/system/culture", etc etc etc, the only response will be... silence. Because people like citygirl will be gone.

In other words, Guillo, it appears that you will have the last word here - and be the last man standing. Because those who are pursuing an end rather than a stance, will make exactly the adjustment to reality that you refuse to - and leave. Is this the desired outcome? From a lot of your comments, it sounds like you genuinely think so. But if the plan is for anyone with outside money, - that they want to invest in terms that make the most sense - to leave, what is the plan?

 

[notebook.fix]

Foreign investment?? WHO NEEDS it when you have Cristina & her army of communist leaning supporters.

Citygirl, my sincere sympathies for this, I'm really sad to hear your story.
I really hope the best for you in the next country cause this one has too many people who are either too ignorant or just plainly too stupid by birth.

These socialist automatons are like a cancer to the body...they eat themselves out of their own economic existence. Unfortunately the Gov of this country will continue to ferment a hostile environment towards anyone who wants to employ people & raise the standards.

I'm really sorry to read your story.

Are you happy MarcSoc?

Are you happy Gillo?

 

[Guillo]

I'm sorry guys you are having a hard time, but the legal system is not something easy to handle, not here, not in the US (specifically not in the US, where the one with more money is guaranteed a win if nothing, by grinding down the opponent). I guess that while in the US, the one with more money has the most probabilities to settle in good terms for them, or outright win the suits, here is the worker that does. I don't think neither case is particularly fair.

The reality, is that even if you disinvest in the country, we will continue to exist and will continue in our ways. You decided to jump in.... at your own risk. You can win, or you can lose, like any other investment. Higher risk, higher payoff.

I'm really sorry that it didn't work for citigirl, really.
And yes, if you are outsider, you must either accept and adapt to local conditions, or not jump in at all. You can't expect to everyone focus on the US interests by default just because it has a bunch of cash to invest.

 

[jazrgz]

The reality, is that even if you disinvest in the country, we will continue to exist and will continue in our ways. You decided to jump in.... at your own risk. You can win, or you can lose, like any other investment. Higher risk, higher payoff..

Guillo, really, are you kidding me ? i cant believe this, you are indeed happy that this occurs, that people from abroad cannot open up businesses here and if they do, that they cant succeed. I mentioned this before, is because of ppl like you running this country that we have so many problems, particularly with unemployment or employment in negro. Unfortunately having the country in as much chaos as possible is definately a plus and an advantage for a certain group of ppl ! Such a shame this is happening in my country ! really !!

I'm really sorry that it didn't work for citigirl, really.
And yes, if you are outsider, you must either accept and adapt to local conditions, or not jump in at all. You can't expect to everyone focus on the US interests by default just because it has a bunch of cash to invest.

Im sure Citigirl as so many others, of course they know they are going to have to play under a different set of rules, im sure that in order to be able to open up a business here they have to become very knowledgeable of such differences, but the problem here in Arg is not a different set of rules (different but still fair), the problem is a set of rules that pretty much works against your investment and your chances of being successfull (being successfull the right way, not cheating the system or exploiting the workers as you seem to believe is the case with foreign investors)

Citigirl, im so sorry for your current situation and this decision you were forced to make ! i and many others here (im sure including the ppl that you employed) really despise our reality here and that each year more businesses, local and foreign have to shut down and move on to other countries like brazil ! we loose countless (and very much needed) jobs while our neighbor countries are receiving them with open arms !
All i can say is that hopefully, come October this year this reality will start changing for good ! HOPEFULLY !!!