Feminist Group

[DontMindMe]

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The point that I'm trying to make is that there is a difference between the culture of a country and a real abuse to women. I have to say that I don't see that here (and I say it as a male born here). In real life, with real people. What can't you do as a woman in argentina? Aren't you able to go to college? To practice some profession? to work in some company? to be the owner of a place? To play some sport? I'm seeing women in every position, in every place.

I would love to read what women can't achieve in this country because they are being discriminated for their gender.

You can achieve all sorts of things being a woman in Argentina, this is true. Can you do it without being reminded that what's between your legs is more important than what's between your ears on a near daily basis? I do not think so, no. You are free to dismiss this as as simple "cultural difference" if you like. I find referring so such behavior as a "cultural difference" simplistic at best. But that's where we probably disagree.

Irelander, as a fellow bleeding heart liberal I am very familiar with how machismo/the patriarchy negatively affects men having not only studied such things on an academic level, but having observed it in the men I know in "real life." I can see why you'd say that quantifying such things can be harmful, but I have to disagree--it's important to keep things in perspective. The suicide statistic is true, though. Older men, especially older divorced men, have a much harder time than older divorced women. Without anyone to support, they can lose their sense of self worth, whereas the woman are happy to have no one to take care of but themselves, for once. That comes from the patriarchy--A real man can get lots of women, a wife, kids, etc. What is a man without any of that? What is his purpose? Hence the high suicide rates. Yes, it is sad, I agree. I just think that, when you think of the thousands of years of the history of the world, to think that right now at this moment the priority should be, oh, the poor men, what can we do to help them...Just no. Not there yet. Not even close. Not when we still have women being lit on fire, not when we have feminine genital mutilation, not when a woman in India can't get on a bus without fear of being gang raped, not when I can't get on a crowded subway without cringing, wondering when I'm going to get groped or have someone's erection pressed into my back, not when women can't walk alone at night without a male companion due to fear of being raped. Do men suffer in a patriarchal society? Yes, absolutely, and it is wrong. But they are still in power, and this is key. Have women suffered more, historically? Do they suffer more today? Yes, absolutely, and it is wrong. And they do not hold equal power, not yet.

And sorry, I don't see Victor Hugo making the front page for any part of that hypothetical situation. Run a quick Google search and you'll see men have been saying similar things for a while (and thank God). The first quote I found was from 1939. Haven't found a front page story yet... [/background][/font]

I loved Montauk_Project's post with the New York Times story. Things have come so far, and that is wonderful. But there is still a long way to go.

 

[tesstafarian]

ahahha do you live in the real world?

Have you seen the adverts asking for you to be a woman and under 30??? That would be illegal in many other countries, not here!
As soon as my blonde flat mate walks down the street she gets called names.
My girlfriend often gets 'touch' on the bus and subte, this rarely happens in developed countries.
There is a general macho culture here if that hasn't passed you by.

Perhaps you've lived here too long and just become used to it.

I've only been in Argentina for a few months and between walking my dogs and exploring on foot, I acknowledge that the cat calls are much more prevalent here than in other countries. However, I would also say that it isn't any worse walking in Bario Norte than it is in certain barrios in New York. (One might argue that there's a socioeconomic factor as well, but that's another topic...)

Regarding the advertisements, how different is this from the model market? Not only are they requiring a few physical traits be met, they employ people based on height, weight, hair color, eye color, shoe size....nearly everything is fair game depending on what the client wants. Legally, I'm not sure how modeling agencies can only sign talent that meets their current needs, or how restaurant chains can get away with hiring all female weight staff that are a size 2 or smaller and have a size C or larger, but clearly similarities exist regardless how feminized the country is.

 

[Irelander]

[font=Helvetica Neue'][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)], to think that right now at this moment the priority should be, oh, the poor men, what can we do to help them...Just no. [/background][/font]

DontMindMe, I rest my case.

 

[DontMindMe]

DontMindMe, I rest my case.

You have no case. Seems some people would do anything to be part of a marginalized group. If you want to believe that men are systematically disadvantaged just as much as women on a global scale, well, I don't pretend to understand it. You lack perspective in a big way. Take a class on the subject, read a couple books. Try not to zero in on a fragment of a sentence in a 13-line paragraph in an effort to paint me as some sort of unsympathetic harpie.

 

[Gringoboy]

I will never forget renting a room in a house in London some years ago.
The owner was an ardent feminist and in fact a little scary.
One evening I invited her for a drink in a pub on Wimbledon Common and I bought the first round, not to prove a point but simply out of habit.
When the time came for the second round I politely suggested to her that it was her turn.
At that, she reacted like a scolded cat and almost bit my head off.
Equality heh?

 

[enriquetta]

I appologize for having the incorrect stat, I will look at post next week (will be off email for a bit). Maybe it was just about representation in goverment (I remember Rawanda was also very high, for other reasons).

I dont think your data is incorrect, if it is just focused on the representation in government argentina does rank among the highest (the example of Rwanda is so interesting, how when there was a total collapse in the country women took advantage and demanded their participation in the new government).

 

[AngelinBA]

What about the sexualised ads on TV? Do you remember the one that had the man diving into his girlfriend's cleavage after she announced she was getting her boobs done? It was an ad for ...... chocolate? Can't remember exactly. The only one ever to be taken off air (that I've heard of) but it definitely isn't alone in being completely over the top sexualised.
The lingerie stores with big signs with models in very provocative poses to sell their lingerie, the fact that all famous actresses I have seen here have also taken their clothes off for photos because to prove that they're serious actors it seems they have to prove that they're beautiful too. The 'pone a francella' show in general. The fact that these things are acceptable here is what still gets me after 12 years.

 

[dennisr]

After reading this thread, my conclusion is, Argentina's problems can be attributed to the high rate of women in elected offices. Never thought about it or gave it any credibility until I read this thread. Thank-you ladies. Pardon me, Thank-you persons.

 

[la_guachita]

MP and I seemingly live in alternate realities, although she does have some good points in regards to women professionals



I would love to read what women can't achieve in this country because they are being discriminated for their gender.


...off the cuff. Can't achieve:

- having male platonic friends who aren't gay
-not having good old-fashion friendliness misinterpreted as romantic interest
- being invited by a work colleague for 'coffee' on the pretense of talking about a project and having the expectation they will remain professional
- walking down the street without receiving comments on one's appearance, even dressed as babushka in the bread line (and sometimes these comments are even tips on how you could improve yr appearance. Why thanks, grandpa! -- Nevermind that whole reason I'm dressed like this in the first place is b/c I don't enjoy blatant scrutiny of my body by viejo verdes like you!)
- not facing passive aggression or inexplicable mala onda from wives/girlfriends of colleagues who inherently see you as a threat, even though you have no interest in their man and would never be a homewrecker


It's not all bad though. The catcalls in my barrio in NYC were more often vulgar in nature -- here they are usually benign. In relationships the men here are ‘compañeros’ and they rarely abandon their kids. And at least men walk you home or to grab a cab, which is just common courtesy, sometimes overlooked in more individualist cultures. Believing women to be equal and having good manners shouldn’t be mutually exclusive.

I would love to see a feminist movement here that is not the exclusionary and self-defeating 'slutwalk'.

 

[Jaredberryman]

There are some machista attitudes in Argentina, but mostly there is just plain sexual objectification of women (does that qualify as machismo?) Compared to all other Latin American countries, in my humble opinion, Argentina might be the least machista. If you go to Venezuela, for instance, the tradition there is that when a boy turns 14, you pay a prostitute to "make a man" out of the boy. A friend of mine took a survey in Venezuela in some poorer neighbourhoods and found that most people believed that the actual role of the father figure was to go out, get drunk, and sleep around. I lived in Mexico and half the men I knew had a wife, a mistress, and a girlfriend.

I think over the years what we are seeing with the younger generations is that men/boys do not want to grow up and begin to work and participate in the labor force and in society as adults. Increasingly, with the economical instability, men are seeing that getting a job, having a family, etc., are a hassle and a responsibility that brings pressure to bear upon them. Although in Argentina most do not think that men are more valuable than women or that women are not equal, there are still some of those traditional roles and thinking about who does what in marriages. A man who would stay home to take care of the children so that a wife can advance in her career is seen in a very bad light here, so if you have a family the common idea here culturally is that the male figure is responsible for bringing in the majority of the income to support the family. In most young couples with young children, both couples now work and have careers. Not sure that is the best model for the children personally, but that's the way it goes.

Since there are less and less men/boys that are willing to grow up, there are less and less young men that you find working at multinationals, and more and more capable and competitive women in the labor force. For this reason, the number of women in the work force is growing steadily. Lots of times, in the work force, women are seen as good assets in the workplace. In that sense, Argentina is light years ahead of other countries in Latin America. I thought that when I lived in other Latin American countries that women were often treated like scum. Here in Argentina, there seems to be a more general respect for women and a more balanced view, even though in my country some would be horrified by the way people think about male and female genders. Personally, I find it refreshing. Here men are allowed to be masculine, and women allowed to feminine, and no one has to be above the other. I think in my own culture, we confuse equality with androgyny.