"Insecurity is just a perception"

[Bajo_cero2]

I take the Autopista Illia regularly - it's the one that goes right by the Villa 31. Interestingly enough, most homes have a DIRECT TV dish mounted on the roof.

Sure, they are hard workers. They can do whatever they want with their lives and their houses. Or you mean that they should be suffering 24 hs per day?.

In fact, Villa 31 is a place were poor immigrants live because this is just behing the long distance bus station. So, this is just a place they stay until they can do better.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Now I see, villa Rodrigo Bueno "una de las villas más peligrosas de la ciudad." Scarey as I got lost on that side of the eco reserve a while ago (i'm one of these people who can get lost anywhere..) and was wandering around aimlessly for a while.

The only really dangerous one is Ciudad Oculta.

Also read that they were offered 15 000 pesos each to leave and refused. Since the police and authorities refuse to enter why wouldn't they just take the 15 000 and go on holiday for a month then move back in?

Of course, why should they sell the houses for peanuts? They cannot buy a house for 15.000.

This is not true that police refuses to entry, they refuse to repress. And this is because they don´t want to be prosecuted because those guys have rights.

You know, when you live in a country where over 40% of population is under the poverty line you have 2 choises. To create an apartheid or to try to integrate those people to society. Perhaps it is just a matter of consciousness.

 

[perry]

The only really dangerous one is Ciudad Oculta.



Of course, why should they sell the houses for peanuts? They cannot buy a house for 15.000.

This is not true that police refuses to entry, they refuse to repress. And this is because they don´t want to be prosecuted because those guys have rights.

You know, when you live in a country where over 40% of population is under the poverty line you have 2 choises. To create an apartheid or to try to integrate those people to society. Perhaps it is just a matter of consciousness.

Thank you for your posts and understanding of complex problems. The problems of crime are more related to the justice system and its protections of the more powerful. In all societies the poor commit less real crimes than the rich but we demonise the poor and create this illusion that they are more dangerous .

Most slums in Buenos Aires people live dignified lives and get on with their lot as best as possible . They are not out robbing all night .

I have been victim of crime here and all the robbers were wealthy looking with expensive clothes and motorbikes.

 

[French jurist]

I'll post again later, but somehow the whole system is wicked :

- Very low classes : Insecurity = no access to clean water, very poor access to education, very poor access to health services, in case of an abortion = finish on a backroom table with an improvised medic, racism (los negros), denegation from the other "as being an human being" (worst than hating someone = trying to close the eyes about someone exists), controls if you go to the centro (it's not "their" place), suffering from other lower class people (because in a villa it's not heterogenous at all, there are MANY different groups of people),...

- basic middle class (a characteristic of Argentina is its vast range of middle class people. Here I'm talking about the working class making 4000/6000$ for a single, 10/12000$ for a family) : Full payment of the various taxes (not enough money to pay for a "tax optimisation" + working in blanco = pay all of your taxes). They suffer from insecurity and it's a very bad one as well because if you rob the car from such a family (e.g.) it will be really difficult to get a new one quickly + usual ripoffs + usual scams + usual steals,...

- upper middle class (making 15/25000$ for a single, 30/50000$ for a family) : things get easy but they are scared. They have enough means to open bank accounts in Uruguay, disminish their taxes quite substantially (not realizing they are screwing the educational system btw). They eventually buy a flat in Punta del Este or for the most wealthy (and clever), they bought a house 15 years ago in Jose Ignacio. They will complain that here and there they get robbed by pibes chorros (usually just a necklace, sometimes it turns out bloody) but they'll feel as victims. Furthermore they are damn scared by the leftist politic here (how odd people who have nothing do vote for the left).

- Top classes : Miami and so on... (useless to develop I guess)

- Police : About 3 or 4 years ago, a basic police guy was starting with an income of 1200/1500$. Today (not sure), it might be around 2500/3000$. Those basic cops come from the lower classes. How do you live decently with that ?



The whole system is kind of wicked if you ask me (I'll post again later).

 

[tangobob]

Tangobob,
Well, I'm a human being, so are you, and so is everyone else including the victims of crime and those whose quality of life is diminshed because they feel insecure in their homes and on the street. Are you advocating that govt should never fix problems if the fix would cause inconvenience or even great hardship to someone or some group?
I am not knowledgeable about villa demographics, but I thought many of the homes/dwellings are illegal for one reason or another, e.g., no construction permit, no compliance with building codes or zoning ordinances, no meters for payment of municipal services, failure to pay taxes like ABL, no rightful ownership/deeds other than perhaps those founded on squatters' rights. Additionally, I wonder what % of the inhabitants are in AR illegally and are working illlegally without paying taxes? What % are engaged in criminal activity?

A person who violates the law to satisfy his own agenda (even a compelling one), has no right to continue doing so just because compliance with the law would work a hardship. Nor should any such person have a reasonable expectation that he should be able to violate the law indefinitely. It should come as no surprise to a lawbreaker that the law may intervene to stop the violation.

Occupants of villas that are in violation of the law may not deserve to be mistreated, but it is equally true that they do not deserve to be permitted to continue to live in illegal dwellings, especially if these villas contribute significantly to crime, a propositon that seems pretty clear.

Villa 31 and the villa by the ecological reserve occupy what would ordinarily be pretty expensive land (because of their proximity to upscale neighborhoods). Why would it be wrong for the city to renovate these areas? Those villa residents that were legal residents and that had legal title to land (and buildings thereon) would be compensated the fair market value of the property. They would also be entitled to own and/or rent partially subsidized public housing in the suburbs, public housing that could be financed with the profits from the sale of the villa land to developers as well as the enormously increased tax base of the new housing built on the sites.

I do not onow the backgrounds of those on this site, but I have family who where forcibly evicted in the notorious slum clearances of the sixties. From land that was/is worth a fortune. Whole communities destroyed families torn appart and livelyhoods lost.
The crime with in these communities was zero, but many of the youths who were now root less and baseless went on to become delinquents.
You worship the god of money if you want, but do not drag poor decent people into the cesspit with you.
Your honesty has NOTHING to do with where you are brought up, but everything to do with the way you are treated.

 

[earlyretirement]

Actually I don't really have a problem with these squatters if they are on PUBLIC land but where I have a problem is when they are on PRIVATE property.

I have a friend that bought a building in San Telmo a few years ago. He went through the process of legally purchasing the property. It was FILLED to the brim with Peruvians and other poor living here. He didn't think it would be so difficult getting them out.

Boy was he wrong! These people hired lawyers to fight for their right to ILLEGALLY stay in his property. And because the laws here don't protect the owners he had to go through that process. I forget how long it took but I think it took 2 years to get them out. Even when the judge ordered them out they refused to leave. Finally one morning the police came in riot gear and had to forceably remove them. It was quite a scene from what I hear.

My friend tried paying them to leave. Apparently in these kind of cases there is a leader that charges everyone to stay. And apparently he was making so much money charging them that he refused. In the end, they finally got them out after 2+ years.

I hope some of you aren't trying to advocate or suggest that somehow these people illegally trespassing on private property someone have a right to be there.....

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I hope some of you aren't trying to advocate or suggest that somehow these people illegally trespassing on private property someone have a right to be there.....

Well, after 20 year they can have a legal title of the property. Before they have no right.
Regards

 

[citygirl]

It took my friend 3 YEARS to get a squatter (actually a tenant who refused to leave) off her farm. In the meantime, the person destroyed the property, vandalized and stole things and there was nothing she could do. She needed a judge's permission to enter her own property.

Re villas - I've actually just started reading up on them because I was interested in learning more (a mini-villa has popped up across the street from my friends place on Godoy Cruz).

Can someone explain to me - I assume that they begin by illegally squatting. If they do gain some type of rights after 20 years - what happens then? Are they paying taxes on their homes? Do they pay for the electricity used? Do they have any type of inspections? Who provides the water to them (I don't *think* there is potable water.)

 

[dennisr]

Well, after 20 year they can have a legal title of the property. Before they have no right.
Regards

Like the bard said: "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."

 

[French jurist]

Well, after 20 year they can have a legal title of the property. Before they have no right.
Regards

It would be convenient to talk about the tierras fiscales
As a matter of fact, for wealthy people with the right contact, it's possible to buy one acre for 30 pesos here.... (it's not a political comment, everyone does it here). So, the poor guys living side by side in villa 31, nearby the highway, seem like very little to me.