Seeking advise on a "touchy topic"

[Iznogud]

No paper was THEN, when you had trust and an agreement. Now these are different conditions and there's no reason while the same rules should apply. You did not agreed or consent to this person stealing from you.
This is NOW, when the current rules (remember the Golden Rule) dictate that a signed paper stating that there will be no further claims, will get this person the money wanted.
You are no longer dealing with the thief, you are dictating conditions and the other party should accept and move on or you will know for certain the bad intentions and your troubles are not over.

Have you got copy of passport, ID etc.? could come in handy.

 

[cbphoto]

I agree.. If he is down and out as you have written before.. he will/must accept the condition that he signs a paper that he has received final and last payment of 500 pesos. If he will not sign this paper.. it is obvious that he is planing on getting more money out of you!
You live in an expensive, high security building (4 guards at any time)... so I am guessing you are well to do. Very easy to find a few crooks/cops.. that would be more than happy to extort more money from you...
No signature...no money...

 

[mulderfox]

well if the guard is to give him the money that can be a excuse to make him sign something at least atating that he got xxx amount of pesos. you could also ask for a video if you have a cctv
also tell everyone you know about the problem. if he later on decides to take this to court you`ll need witnesses

 

[Iznogud]

There's no such court for these things.
CCTV will only show one guy picking an enveloppe and signing for it.
Guard will not eat a shit sandwich for you. It's none of his business.

 

[amorphous face]

Well I am glad you gave the employee the money as you owed it to him and I am sure you were probably paying him very little and paying him in black with no benefits. That doesn't justify his stealing. I am not sure why you wanted to hold off on paying him what you owed him just because he yelled at you. You yelled back. You both abused each other. Plus I get yelled at all the time by drivers when I am walking on the street or when I am in line when people think I am taking too long or asking too many questions or whatever. Just because an employee yells at you doesn't mean you can keep from paying him the money you owe him.

 

[earlyretirement]

There's no such court for these things.
CCTV will only show one guy picking an enveloppe and signing for it.
Guard will not eat a shit sandwich for you. It's none of his business.

EXACTLY! These guards loyalty is to their bosses/employers and that is it. Sure, they might be nice but really they aren't going to go out of their way or cause problems to risk losing their job in any potential stink or dispute.

99.9999% of the time you have a situation like this...you just pay what you owe and the person disappears. That's the best you can hope for in this situation that you never see/hear from this person again after this.

Like I said...these employees will NEVER admit they did anything wrong even when it's clear and obvious they did. And these Porteños can be so whacky that I honestly think they talk themselves into believing they are in the right.

 

[Iznogud]

earlyretirement, you do not have the full story. Please do not make assumptions and blame Porteños. Who told you one was involved?

 

[earlyretirement]

Earlyretirement, you do not have the full story. Please do not make assumptions and blame Porteños. Who told you one was involved?

No I did see the part where he said it wasn't a Porteño. I was just speaking in general as most people that hire an employee will probably hire a Porteño. I'm hoping people use this post as a reference in the future.

 

[Iznogud]

I resemble that remark. I'm a porteño but there's no porteño in Ceviche's current misfortune.

 

[earlyretirement]

Another true story just to give you an idea how corrupt Argentina is as it pertains to employees.

Back when I first moved to Argentina almost a decade ago I was very clueless to how strong the employee labor laws & corruption were.

I told my lawyers that were setting up the company to do everything legal and in white. I didn't have any experience dealing with the crazy black/white issues in other countries that I did busienss. I was an idealist and right was right and wrong was wrong.

So my first experience with an employee stealing I was totally clueless. I did what any employer would do in any civilized first world country. I immediately fired the employee. I believe we paid the legal minimum we had to pay for severance but she was demanding more money.

It was a clear cut case where she was stealing company documents and information and passing it along to a local competitor. Good old fashioned corporate espionage. So naturally you can imagine my reluctance to pay this thief anything! I told my lawyer I'd rather spend thousands of dollars in legal bills fighting her than pay her a penny more than we legally had to. (Yes, I was an idiot then when it pertained to employee labor law and the corrupt Argentina system). My lawyer was a good guy and he tried to talk me out of it.

Naturally almost immediately after we fired her, we get a carta documento along with a letter from a scumbag lawyer working on contingency demanding a lawsuit. I told my lawyer to proceed with the lawsuit. He warned me it could take YEARS. I didn't care.

So a few times a year for 3 YEARS this went on. He'd have several meetings including court meetings for depositions and I'd get billed for it. I didn't really know when it would get settled and to be honest forgot about it. I'd authorize my accountant to pay the legal bills each time one came.

Imagine my shock and horror 3 years later when we get a call from our bank that our corporate bank account was frozen! Keep in mind this was an account used to pay all our corporate bills as well as salaries. A LOT of activity ran through this account. I asked my accountant to find out what was going on. Being crazy Argentina I figured it had to be some mistake.

My lawyer talks to the bank and they say the account was frozen by the government due to us losing a court case. HUH? I was very puzzled as we didn't have any court cases or disputes at all. (I forgot about this dispute with this ex employee....keep in mind 3 YEARS had passed) but there was no court case.

My lawyer explains it all to me. It seems we didn't show up for a court case trial of this person that stole from us. Huh you ask? Well, I had my lawyer investigate this and it seems there was a legal notice when you have a trial/court case. They said that we were served a proper legal notice and claimed someone signed for it. First they said a secretary for our company. We challenged it and then they said it was the doorman of the building. Which he denied and there are cameras in the building lobby that proved the doorman didn't sign at that date/time.

My office as in an upscale building with security around the clock and doormen around the clock. My office was also open 7 days a week so no way they could claim someone in my office signed it.

In the end we were forced in paying to unfreeze our corporate bank account. My lawyer said we could appeal it and prove no one signed the notice with the court date. Obviously he reasoned, someone was bribed and signed the form stating that we were given notice of the trial. He said we could appeal but "it could take 3 more years and more legal bills".

THIS is Argentina for you. Totally true story. One of many.