Are The Italians To Blame For Argentina's Demise

[Nounou]

In a word, No.

No one is trying to make anyone a scapegoat. These so-called scapegoats would in any case be long dead and in the grave. Also I am totally mystified on the several posts comparing Australia and Argentina. The former is one of the healthiest economies in the world today, a strong currency and relatively low deficit. The latter is an economic basket-case with a currency that is an joke.

Instead of resorting to the old truism that Argentina's problems are the result of successive bad governments, it is more useful to try and determine why that state of affairs came about.

Instead of throwing out words like "racist", "troll" and "scapegoat" maybe we could offer some theories not based on name calling, for example:

Some have suggested that Argentina's problems are because the people have a distaste for capitalism and "evil businessman" and rely on the government for solutions. I myself find favor with that argument, but if that were the prime case then the French who have the greatest distaste for capitalism would be in the same boat as Argentina.

So what else is there?

There is a Culture of Corruption in Argentina that may have originated in Southern Italy. I know many of you would consider this political incorrect. I suggest to you to stop reading and turn on Oprah.

The reason that this Culture of Corruption took hold in Argentina unlike the other countries that experienced immigration from Italy is that no other country took a majority of their immigration from Italy and particularly southern Italy. Is it just a coincidence that Southern Italy is historically one of the most corrupt places in Europe - if not the world.

If a country took a majority of their new inhabitants from a region with endemic corruption, e.g. China or Nigeria, would it be any surprise that that country ended up an economic basket case because of corruption.

Would Argentina have the same economic problems if a majority of the immigrants had come from Scandinavia?

Joe, take a deep breath! Whilst I didn't expect you to agree with my argument, and lets face it you don't have too, I at no time in my brief discussion called you a 'troll' or 'racist'. I suggest you take that up with the people who did! I did say you had used migration from Italy as a means of scapegoating a particular ethnic group. That charge still stands, as you went on to say...and I quote.....
"The reason that this Culture of Corruption took hold in Argentina unlike the other countries that experienced immigration from Italy is that no other country took a majority of their immigration from Italy and particularly southern Italy. Is it just a coincidence that Southern Italy is historically one of the most corrupt places in Europe - if not the world".
Over the years the level of migration from Southrn Italy has far outstripped the immigration from the north regardless of the county of eventual settlement. You contradict yourself, I rest my case. Corruption is endemic in every country, some are better able to hide it than others. As your little aside in 'turn on Oprah', no thank you, in a week when she is to interview the pinacle of corruption and cheating, Mr Lance Armstorng himself.

As for a distaste for capitalism and a reliance on government, you may well have a point. I, however, as in my initial argument tend to point the finger at the individual. Ideology aside, we all operate on the premise of 'self interest', the above named former cyclist being a prime example, thankfully he's been caught, although still in denial. I wonder if he has any Italian blood in him?.....doubt it somehow!

 

[lamarque]

An addition to the list: Troll, Racist, Scapegoater , and now "Dick". Such intellectual and cogent arguments. Sarc Off

Most of Latin America is not a mess. Chile, Peru, Colombia and Brazil - which comprise a majority of the continent by population are on the ascent.

Look I'm sorry if I offended Italians. I'm not attacking Italians as people. I'm just referring to the corruption endemic to southern Italy and it's influence in Argentina. Calling me a "dick" has in no way strengthened your argument. Maybe you should get your cugino, "Fat Tony" to do a little arm twisting - maybe that's your best bet.

People need to stop taking things personally. I'm in Vietnam now and the Yanqui backpacker is in no way responsible for the heinous actions taken by their government 40+ years ago - they weren't even born. Pretending it didn't happen is another story.

Joe i can agree that Italy have had major influence in Argentina, but you go to far, you mention that Country's that have been less influenced by Italian immigration has develop more that is nonsense. Argentina was the most developed of the group and is still in Latam (the others are heading in the right direction and Argentina is doing terrible lately that for sure but that don't have relation with the Italian), is Argentina more corrupt than the other Latam country’s i don't think so, is Argentina violent place compare to the other Latin country's, NO, is actually one of the less violent only surpassed by Chile.
Is the HDI = human development index lower than the other Latinian countrys, the answer is again NO Argentina have the highest HDI in the region, the same go for the gdp per capita, so your theory of Italian making the country the worst in the region are wrong and don't have any fundaments really, i could affirm the opposite if i believe it, and i will have better arguments than yours.

I think the problem here is that you have had a girl stolen by an Italian and since then you blame them even for the crisis in Argentina, that is go a little to far don't you thing

 

[Joe]

La Marque, You make a good argument .... finally someone doesn't resort to childest name calling. The thing you have to look at is the trend. Whilst the trend has been down for 100 years in Argentina, the trend is up in Chile, Brazil, Peru and Columbia. The downtrend coincidentally coincides with the uptick of immigration from Southern Italy.

No I haven't had a girl stolen from me by an Italian. I never stick around long enough! I love Italian culture, food, movies and have many Italian friends.

I'm extremely disappointed in the juvenile arguments made by other posters that referring to Italian political and economic culture is racist. Using the same reasoning you could not criticize the Spanish conquest of South America, German Nazism or American war-mongering as these would also be considered racist.

Again kudos to you for offering a real counter argument.

 

[Joe]

Over the years the level of migration from Southrn Italy has far outstripped the immigration from the north regardless of the county of eventual settlement. You contradict yourself, I rest my case. Corruption is endemic in every country, some are better able to hide it than others.

I'm sorry but I don't see how I contradicted myself. To suggest that the level of corruption is "endemic in every country" is simply not true. Any business person with international experience will tell you that certain countries are more expensive to do business in because of corruption. We can say that everyone is equal out of allegiance to Political Correctness - but it doesn't make it so.

 

[sleslie23]

Phil with this post you've just got yourself promoted to Field Marshall of the Political Correctness police.

Since when does not having your head in your a** equate to being politically correct?

 

[sleslie23]

finally someone doesn't resort to childest name calling.

Joe in Vietnam - Master of Irony.

 

[camberiu]

Is the HDI = human development index lower than the other Latinian countrys, the answer is again NO Argentina have the highest HDI in the region, the same go for the gdp per capita, so your theory of Italian making the country the worst in the region are wrong and don't have any fundaments really, i could affirm the opposite if i believe it, and i will have better arguments than yours.

Argentina has the highest HDI in the region AFTER Chile. Let's make that very clear, as many people seem to be unaware that Chile has better social indicators than Argentina. That is despite the fact that corporations there are "held less accountable" than in Argentina, as claimed by some.

Source: http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/map/

 

[toongeorges]

The downtrend coincidentally coincides with the uptick of immigration from Southern Italy.

I would say the down trend coincides with peronism rather than with South Italian immigration.

 

[Rich One]

La Marque, You make a good argument .... finally someone doesn't resort to childest name calling. The thing you have to look at is the trend. Whilst the trend has been down for 100 years in Argentina, the trend is up in Chile, Brazil, Peru and Columbia. The downtrend coincidentally coincides with the uptick of immigration from Southern Italy.

No I haven't had a girl stolen from me by an Italian. I never stick around long enough! I love Italian culture, food, movies and have many Italian friends.

I'm extremely disappointed in the juvenile arguments made by other posters that referring to Italian political and economic culture is racist. Using the same reasoning you could not criticize the Spanish conquest of South America, German Nazism or American war-mongering as these would also be considered racist.

Again kudos to you for offering a real counter argument.

Without going to Extremes I support some aspects of Joe's theory. Southern Italians introduced their culture in Argentina, with all its traits....!! from Calabria and Sicily. Not only Corruption.

The Italian Immigrant descendants reached a Critical Mass in the Circles of Power after Peron? (My son the Doctor)
If you analyze among the Power Brokers before Peron, Italian last names were almost not present. Today we have too many! Macri and Scioli.....! consider the Judicial System, Health System, The Soccer..!! etc.

 

[lamarque]

Argentina has the highest HDI in the region AFTER Chile. Let's make that very clear, as many people seem to be unaware that Chile has better social indicators than Argentina. That is despite the fact that corporations there are "held less accountable" than in Argentina, as claimed by some.

Source: http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/map/

Camberiu, Argentina and chile have been on the head since 10 years ago, before that, Argentina was alone in the head never touched and by a far margin, since chile reach the same level as Argentina, some years Argentia is on the Head, and some years Chile you can check it your self and in any case the diference is so so so minuscule that dons't matter for the case, and less for this discussion, my afirmation of Argentina been the highest HDI in the region is still true some years chile surpase Argentina some others Argentina surpase chile the level is almost the same (in their case wining in order, and stable economy, in argentina case wining in more educated population, free health sistem, free university and a big pool of benefit for employs) in any case they are both far away from any other country in the region so not to blame Italians about that, i will blame peronist for making the country go down from the previous status but nothing is so simple, there are many factors and yes maybe there is a little influence of cultural factors.
In any case a good government that make the economy stable and that enought to make the HDI go up here to the previous level, as there is already free health, free education, free univesity, access to gas and electricity in all the country, things that are very important for that index and that are in total lack in chile.