Are The Italians To Blame For Argentina's Demise

[camberiu]

Camberiu, Argentina and chile have been on the head since 10 years ago, before that, Argentina was alone in the head never touched and by a far margin, since chile reach the same level as Argentina, some years Argentia is on the Head, and some years Chile you can check it your self

Just did. It seems that the last time Argentina was ahead of Chile in terms of HDI was in 1995. Since then Chile has been consistently ahead of Argentina in therms of HDI every single year. If you have a dataset that shows something different, I'd love to see it.

(...)argentina case wining in more educated population, free health sistem, free university and a big pool of benefit for employs(...)

Again, the data does not seem to support the claims you just made

Literacy Rate in Argentina: 98%
Literacy Rate in chile: 99%
Source: http://data.worldban.../SE.ADT.LITR.ZS

Also, considering that Chile has a higher life expectancy and a lower child mortality rate than Argentina, I am not sure about your claim that Argentinians get better health care than the Chileans. It seems to me, based on the statistics, that Argentinians can only hope for a free and crappy health care while most Chileans are able to afford better paid health care. Otherwise, how could you explain that more chilean children survive the first five years of life than their Argentinian counterparts, and that Chileans on average live 5 years longer than Argentinians?

in any case they are both far away from any other country in the region(...)

Hmmmm....that does not appear to be the case either. Let's see:

Chile's HDI: 0.805
Argentina's HDI: 0.797
Uruguay's HDI: 0.783
Costa Rica's HDI: 0.744
Brazil's HDI: 0.718

So, I'd argue that if you think the HDI lead that Chile has over Argentina is not very signficant, I can claim the same about the lead Argentina has over Uruguay. Also, the HDI gap between Argentina and some other countries int he region do not appear to be as "far away" as you seem to suggest. More importantly, the gap has been closing rather quickly. Argentina was surpassed by Chile back in 1995 and I'd not be surprised if Uruguay, Costa Rica and even Brazil manage surpass Argentina within the next 10 years or less.

In terms of employment benefits, they sound very nice, but don't help much when you can't get a job.

Unemployment rate in Chile: 6.2% (http://www.tradingec...employment-rate)
Unemployment rate in Argentina: 7.6% (http://www.tradingec...employment-rate)

Spanish law offers a ton of job benefits, but they have an unemployment rate of almost 30%.....

In any case a good government that make the economy stable and that enought to make the HDI go up here to the previous level, as there is already free health, free education, free univesity, access to gas and electricity in all the country, things that are very important for that index and that are in total lack in chile.

Again, I am not sure where you are pulling your data from, but what I can verify shows a VERY different story.
From Wikipedia:

Access to Electricity, Chile: "Total electricity coverage in Chile was as high as 99.3% in 2006.[13] Most of the progress in rural areas, where 96.4% of the population now has access to electricity" http://en.wikipedia...._to_electricity

Access to Electricity, Argentina: "Total electricity coverage in Argentina was as high as 95% in 2003.[8] However, about 30% of the rural population lacks access to electricity" http://en.wikipedia...._to_electricity

I think is past time to kill this myth, this urban legend that the "little guy" is better off in Argentina than in Chile. THat is simply not true. Chile is not perfect, but it is much better than Argentina, specially if you are poor.

 

[Rich One]

Well this thread turned to be a Chile-Argentina match?? BTW Chile has a small Italian Community mostly Xeneise, and Northern Italians.

 

[lamarque]

Just did. It seems that the last time Argentina was ahead of Chile in terms of HDI was in 1995. Since then Chile has been consistently ahead of Argentina in therms of HDI every single year. If you have a dataset that shows something different, I'd love to see it.



Again, the data does not seem to support the claims you just made

Literacy Rate in Argentina: 98%
Literacy Rate in chile: 99%
Source: http://data.worldban.../SE.ADT.LITR.ZS

Also, considering that Chile has a higher life expectancy and a lower child mortality rate than Argentina, I am not sure about your claim that Argentinians get better health care than the Chileans. It seems to me, based on the statistics, that Argentinians can only hope for a free and crappy health care while most Chileans are able to afford better paid health care. Otherwise, how could you explain that more chilean children survive the first five years of life than their Argentinian counterparts, and that Chileans on average live 5 years longer than Argentinians?



Hmmmm....that does not appear to be the case either. Let's see:

Chile's HDI: 0.805
Argentina's HDI: 0.797
Uruguay's HDI: 0.783
Costa Rica's HDI: 0.744
Brazil's HDI: 0.718

So, I'd argue that if you think the HDI lead that Chile has over Argentina is not very signficant, I can claim the same about the lead Argentina has over Uruguay. Also, the HDI gap between Argentina and some other countries int he region do not appear to be as "far away" as you seem to suggest. More importantly, the gap has been closing rather quickly. Argentina was surpassed by Chile back in 1995 and I'd not be surprised if Uruguay, Costa Rica and even Brazil manage surpass Argentina within the next 10 years or less.

In terms of employment benefits, they sound very nice, but don't help much when you can't get a job.

Unemployment rate in Chile: 6.2% (http://www.tradingec...employment-rate)
Unemployment rate in Argentina: 7.6% (http://www.tradingec...employment-rate)

Spanish law offers a ton of job benefits, but they have an unemployment rate of almost 30%.....




Again, I am not sure where you are pulling your data from, but what I can verify shows a VERY different story.
From Wikipedia:

Access to Electricity, Chile: "Total electricity coverage in Chile was as high as 99.3% in 2006.[13] Most of the progress in rural areas, where 96.4% of the population now has access to electricity" http://en.wikipedia...._to_electricity

Access to Electricity, Argentina: "Total electricity coverage in Argentina was as high as 95% in 2003.[8] However, about 30% of the rural population lacks access to electricity" http://en.wikipedia...._to_electricity

I think is past time to kill this myth, this urban legend that the "little guy" is better off in Argentina than in Chile. THat is simply not true. Chile is not perfect, but it is much better than Argentina, specially if you are poor.

Wow really, wikipedia lol man i will not bother my self to answer but really you take the info from wikipedia?. And no your data is wrong specially your afirmation of chile surpassing Argentina in 1995, Argentina have been in the top until 2002 after the crisis there where some years of chile and some years where argentina was on the top, and your afirmation of chile been top hdi in 1995 man you should have gone there in that times, chile economy was bad and people cross to Argentina illegally to get jobs here, of course they were going in the right direction as we can see now, but mainly their economic succes was more a matter of luck (prices of the raw mine metals they produce and export rise more than anything and they have a huge weight in their economy and exports as they are a small country in population with a huge amount of minerals exportations 100 B usd) and they took very good policies for sure, Argentina take bad decitions and now here they are. In any case rich one is right this is not the place to discuss this, open a new thread if you wish and i put you all the info there so we don't distort this topic.

 

[nicoenarg]

Here's some data about Chile and Argentina.

Lamarque, Wikipedia is fine as long as one checks the sources. Just because its written on Wikipedia doesn't mean it should be discounted.

Figures for Argentina:

http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/ARG.html

Figures for Chile:

http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/CHL.html

 

[trennod]

Lamarque i have seen you use Wikipedia before for data, i have no problem with those sourced, do you have any evidence to contradict because up to now you have presented zillch! (None).

 

[arlean]

What an interesting, interesting, thinking discussion. Makes me wish I had some experience with Italy just to understand what you guys are saying. I don't care what crazy "case law" says, case law doesn't change facts, only controls our thinking (maybe). People do tend to follow their heritage. I've recognized that for a long time. There was one case with about 32 children from a crime family, all adopted out as infants who, when followed up on as adults, had an incredible percentage that had turned to crime. Even though not raised with crime.I know this flies in the face of our "programming" but it is still a fact.

You can go back to the Hebrews. They left Ur.I researched Ur once and they worshipped idols (and did child sacrifice in case anyone is interested). Generations later, with all knowing God forbade idols, when Moses didn't come down from the mountain, they gathered up all their precious metals and cast an idol. Now you and I would not think to cast an idol. But it is not in our heritage.

I don't understand this but I consider the evidence. It's been an interest for a long time--trying to understand. We are taught otherwise by those who do not want us to be "racist" but for me the evidence stands. In fact, being so afraid of being called "racist" has adequately limited our thinking. So this is an extremely interesting discussion. I am not siding with those who say it IS because it's Italian, just that I believe heritage is a factor.

I do agree, we cannot BLAME our ancestors. We still each make our own choices. But still I think we deal with the tendencies--and then have a choice to make.

 

[Rich One]

What an interesting, interesting, thinking discussion. Makes me wish I had some experience with Italy just to understand what you guys are saying. I don't care what crazy "case law" says, case law doesn't change facts, only controls our thinking (maybe). People do tend to follow their heritage. I've recognized that for a long time. There was one case with about 32 children from a crime family, all adopted out as infants who, when followed up on as adults, had an incredible percentage that had turned to crime. Even though not raised with crime.I know this flies in the face of our "programming" but it is still a fact.

You can go back to the Hebrews. They left Ur.I researched Ur once and they worshipped idols (and did child sacrifice in case anyone is interested). Generations later, with all knowing God forbade idols, when Moses didn't come down from the mountain, they gathered up all their precious metals and cast an idol. Now you and I would not think to cast an idol. But it is not in our heritage.

I don't understand this but I consider the evidence. It's been an interest for a long time--trying to understand. We are taught otherwise by those who do not want us to be "racist" but for me the evidence stands. In fact, being so afraid of being called "racist" has adequately limited our thinking. So this is an extremely interesting discussion. I am not siding with those who say it IS because it's Italian, just that I believe heritage is a factor.

I do agree, we cannot BLAME our ancestors. We still each make our own choices. But still I think we deal with the tendencies--and then have a choice to make.

For this heritage factor the Ex British Colonies, Australia, New Zealand, USA and Canada developed as Anglo nations, with a diverse idiosyncrasy from the Spanish Colonies... and/or this Italian "Colony" here.

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

Well this thread turned to be a Chile-Argentina match?? BTW Chile has a small Italian Community mostly Xeneise, and Northern Italians.

they'll have the place ruined soon enough apparently ; )

 

[pauper]

What an interesting, interesting, thinking discussion. Makes me wish I had some experience with Italy just to understand what you guys are saying. I don't care what crazy "case law" says, case law doesn't change facts, only controls our thinking (maybe). People do tend to follow their heritage. I've recognized that for a long time. There was one case with about 32 children from a crime family, all adopted out as infants who, when followed up on as adults, had an incredible percentage that had turned to crime. Even though not raised with crime.I know this flies in the face of our "programming" but it is still a fact.

You can go back to the Hebrews. They left Ur.I researched Ur once and they worshipped idols (and did child sacrifice in case anyone is interested). Generations later, with all knowing God forbade idols, when Moses didn't come down from the mountain, they gathered up all their precious metals and cast an idol. Now you and I would not think to cast an idol. But it is not in our heritage.

That reminds me, does anyone know where I can get an idol cast in Buenos Aires? There's nothing on mercadolibre.

 

[EricLovesBA]

This thread is like a scab - you know you shouldn't pick at it, but then *click*, here we are reading it again.

In my personal evolution over the years I have migrated from aspiring to be "color blind" - i.e. being almost blind, intentionally, to race, culture, class, etc, to being aware that we are diverse, and that this blindness is not a total solution to racism. This is because to varying degrees we have a cultural identity, and to ignore that identity is to not fully understand a person. The problem comes when you go to the other extreme and see not a unique individual, but an amalgamation of stereotypes and archetypes. You become so inundated with your own preconceptions that you don't see the real person in front of you at all. In the worst case you entirely react to groups or categories of people in a general negative way based on generalizations that you have not personally explored.

If, statistically and culturally speaking, certain elements of the Argentine peoples' cultural and biological roots make them lean in some certain direction or express themselves in some problematic tendencies (and of course in other very admirable tendencies as well - warmth and strong family values for example), I am left a bit nonplussed. So what? Does this in any way help us resolve any of those problems? What's the next step then? Take away the voting rights of anyone whose last name ends in "I" or "O"? Genocide? Send them all back to Italy?

It would be practically impossible to prove or disprove the OP's hypothesis in any meaningful way. You could twist the idea various directions through semantics, you could undertake a colossal worldwide statistical analysis, but in the end, what is the result beyond an interesting 10 minute lunch conversation topic?

We can ask if the question was racist, and perhaps that is really a subjective matter as well. Some were offended, some were intrigued. Myself it seemed the question was intentionally posted for its shock value - stirring a stick in a pile of ants in the guise of a "scientific analysis" of how the ants will go about putting the anthill back together. Mission accomplished -the ants are running around like crazy and you mostly watched it all from a safe distance, unscathed.