En Negro

[Guillo]

These socialist automatons are like a cancer to the body...they eat themselves out of economic existence. Unfortunately the Gov of this country will continue to ferment a hostile environment for anyone who wants to employ people & raise the standards.

I'm really sorry to read your story.

Are you happy MarcSoc?

Are you happy Gillo?

Glad to see you back here haggling. Too bad you decided to ignore the chance to debate my arguments.

Unlike you, I don't hate you, I don't despise you, I just have my point of view and don't share yours. And unlike you, I accept that several point of view can exist and it doesn't preclude us from being able to discuss issues.

I don't hate businessmen, but I believe I know them, or at least, I've known a bunch of them in my last 20 years working here as employee/outsource in different companies.

I'm not against foreign investment, unless they exploit the workers or expect to be singled out for special treatment just because they want to invest money to make cash to wire out.

Those things I believe, so you can stop putting your panties in a bunch because of my messages. I mean, I see people getting really agressive just because someone posts a message that doesn't align 100% with their values / beliefs.

 

[Guillo]

Guillo, really, are you kidding me ? i cant believe this, you are indeed happy that this occurs, that people from abroad cannot open up businesses here and if they do, that they cant succeed. I mentioned this before, is because of ppl like you running this country that we have so many problems, particularly with unemployment or employment in negro. Unfortunately having the country in as much chaos as possible is definately a plus and an advantage for a certain group of ppl ! Such a shame this is happening in my country ! really !!

Now, I'm really intrigued. WHERE did I say I was happy about it happening? Are you high or something?
I was just pointing out that the world is not ending, and the country will continue to exist even if they take their investments away.

Im sure Citigirl as so many others, of course they know they are going to have to play under a different set of rules

Read the inflation topic. She was totally surprised that the employees weren't happy because she was paying close to (the unkown) inflation index and nothing else. And before you start throwing rotten fruit to me, I'm not saying it was because she's evil or something. But I honestly cant understand how someone can try to start doing business in Argentina without knowing how to handle local inflation.

not cheating the system or exploiting the workers as you seem to believe is the case with foreign investors)

Again, your lack of understanding of written word is baffling.
What I said was that those employing in negro are exploiting workers, both local and foreign investors, and I stand by my words.

All i can say is that hopefully, come October this year this reality will start changing for good ! HOPEFULLY !!!

Well, at least there's something we can agree at.

 

[citygirl]

Guillo:

I truly am puzzled by your statement "You can't expect to everyone focus on the US interests by default just because it has a bunch of cash to invest." I don't even know that that means.

We always adapt to our local business environments - I currently oversee projects in 9 different countries. In each of the countries, we play by all the rules, do everything legally and appropriately.

In all countries, we know there are trade-offs. In one country, we know that we will have to provide a huge amount of employee benefits and employment laws are very strict but the cost of doing business is low there. In another, we know that the government is not pro-business when it comes to foreign business but that our costs of labor will be low. That's fine - we do the analysis in each country.

Again, let me clear, we did our due diligence before coming here and we were, in fact, profitable. But at the end of the day - there are just way too many negative factors in Argentina. It has nothing to do with "not getting it". It's just business sense. Argentina is a country with 30% inflation, very strict and pro-employee labor laws, high degree of government involvement, *very* high taxes, a notoriously bad and convoluted banking system.

These aren't US issues. These aren't "foreign company" issues. These are Argentina issues. And the challenges I faced are the ones that every small business faces every day. And unless it gets better, well, I think it is a bleak message.

Look, I'm not looking for Argentina or you to cry for me. It's fine, we're fine and the company is and will continue to be fine. We'll just be fine somewhere else. I'll let the project die its natural death here & put my replacements and new projects somewhere else - not that end of the world. It's just too bad I couldn't make it work in a country that I love but I play by the rules. And when the rules make the game impossible to win, well, the only thing left to do is stop playing.

 

[PabloAriel]

I thought I would add a side comment regarding this. I received a letter from a former employee this week who is planning on suing me for wrongful termination (even though he quit). Funny enough, I was talking about it with a good friend and his comment to me was "You hire them in blanco - and they sue you. You hire them in negro - and they sue you. And in both cases, chances are you'll pay out. So why bother in blanco - it just winds up costing you more because you're out all those taxes on top of whatever the employees try to sue you for." And I'm starting to see his viewpoint.

The sad thing is - when we received the letter - my lawyer said "Look, I know it's bullshit and so does he. Just pay him a month or two worth of salary and it will go away quickly. Otherwise we'll have to go to court and it's going to take time and be expensive."

The system is set up so that even if you're 100% in the right - as we are - it's cheaper to pay off the employee than defend yourself. And that's just sad.

FWIW - we are going to court with him because I refuse to pay out. It's wrong and I will defend myself in court. And we will win. It will however cost me a large amount of time and money to defend myself over a completely friviolous lawsuit.

For me personally, the saddest thing is that because of this and after looking at the amount of money we paid out last year - the salaries, cargas sociales, private healthcare costs for employees, the cost of doing business here (legal fees, accounting fees, bank fees, etc, etc), IVA and then the 35% corp income tax on whatever profit we have left over - I've made the decision that it just makes no sense to have the business here in Argentina.

We'll starting to look for a new hub for LATAM operations. Right now Brasil, Chile and Uruguay are the top three. And you know -it makes me sad. Will my small business leaving affect anyone? No one except my 10 or so employees, my providers who will lose a client, etc. But it sucks because Argentina is my home and I truly wanted to have the project here because I believe(d) in this country. We went in with our eyes wide open, did all the due diligence and we are still make money at the end of the day. But its simply too hard here and when faced with a gov't that makes it almost impossible and very financially punitive to do the right thing, (some) employees that have a very distrustful relationship with their managers and are quick to sue, a banking system that is convoluted at best and a disaster at worst and constantly rising costs - well, it's just no longer worth it for us. There are too many better, safer, cheaper, more efficient options elsewhere in LATAM.

Anyway.. just wanted to share my at the moment very bitter viewpoint. And say that while I'm glad I did/do everything en blanco because at least I can defend myself - it really at the end of the day didn't help me one bit. It cost me time, it cost me money and in the end, there was no benefit.

You are assuming it's only you the one who's losing money and time. We can't judge that story without knowing why is he suing you... seems pretty odd that he ll do it without any concret reason, at least for me.
It's not just having them "en blanco", when you make an employment agreement there are some obligations you have to stick on.

Foreign investment?? WHO NEEDS it when you have Cristina & her army of communist leaning supporters.

Citygirl, my sincere sympathies for this, I'm really sad to hear your story.
I really hope the best for you in the next country cause this one has too many people who are either too ignorant or just plainly too stupid by birth.

These socialist automatons are like a cancer to the body...they eat themselves out of economic existence. Unfortunately the Gov of this country will continue to ferment a hostile environment for anyone who wants to employ people & raise the standards.

I'm really sorry to read your story.

Are you happy MarcSoc?

Are you happy Gillo?

Why are you blaming the country if you guys should 've known how it stands upon this things in the first place?

BTW, I'm not happy you are leaving citygirl and wont be happy if anyone does, but I'm proud to say that Argentina has the most advanced labor laws in South America.

art. 14 bis de la Constitución Nacional: "El trabajo en sus diversas formas gozará de la protección de las leyes, las que asegurarán al trabajador: condiciones dignas y equitativas de labor; jornada limitada; descanso y vacaciones pagados; retribución justa; salario mínimo vital móvil; igual remuneración por igual tarea; participación en las ganancias de las empresas, con control de la producción y colaboración en la dirección; protección contra el despido arbitrario; estabilidad del empleado público; organización sindical libre y democrática, reconocida por la simple inscripción en un registro especial.
Queda garantizado a los gremios: concertar convenios colectivos de trabajo; recurrir a la conciliación y al arbitraje; el derecho de huelga. Los representantes gremiales gozarán de las garantías necesarias para el cumplimiento de su gestión sindical y las relacionadas con la estabilidad de su empleo.
El Estado otorgará los beneficios de la seguridad social, que tendrá carácter de integral e irrenunciable. En especial, la ley establecerá: el seguro social obligatorio, que estará a cargo de entidades nacionales o provinciales con autonomía financiera y económica, administradas por los interesados con participación del Estado, sin que pueda existir superposición de aportes; jubilaciones y pensiones móviles; la protección integral de la familia; la defensa del bien de familia; la compensación económica familiar y el acceso a una vivienda digna."

 

[citygirl]

Oh and Guillo - you completely didn't get anything I wrote on that salary thread. If you re-read, my point was how to people motivate employees outside of salary raises. And the secondary thread was that I *personally* did and do find it weird that people here don't say thank you for bonuses. Which are not raises.

As for expectation of 30% or 40% annual raises, well, I do wish you and all the employees good luck with that in the future.

 

[jazrgz]

Now, I'm really intrigued. WHERE did I say I was happy about it happening? Are you high or something?
I was just pointing out that the world is not ending, and the country will continue to exist even if they take their investments away..

Yeah, tell that to the 10 or so employees loosing their jobs, im sure they will completely agree with you !!! ...am i high !?? i wish i were, at least things here would make much more sense for instance, ppl loosing jobs (in a country where finding a new one is pretty much not an option) would actually be a good thing

Read the inflation topic. She was totally surprised that the employees weren't happy because she was paying close to (the unkown) inflation index and nothing else. And before you start throwing rotten fruit to me, I'm not saying it was because she's evil or something. But I honestly cant understand how someone can try to start doing business in Argentina without knowing how to handle local inflation..

I believe citigirl already answer this to you.

Again, your lack of understanding of written word is baffling.
What I said was that those employing in negro are exploiting workers, both local and foreign investors, and I stand by my words...

Sorry for baffling you ! i really am ! honestly ! anyways, will not read the whole thread again, i know you were fixated on US and foreing inverstors not getting prepared / being knowledgable enough to start businesses here ! not so sure if at some point you mentioned anything about local ones as well (and again, will not go though all of it again).

Well, at least there's something we can agree at.

Cool !

 

[Guillo]

Guillo:
I truly am puzzled by your statement "You can't expect to everyone focus on the US interests by default just because it has a bunch of cash to invest." I don't even know that that means.

What I tried to convey (sorry, I'm not native english spoken) is that businessmen bringing cash from abroad shouldn't expect preferential treatment or changing the rules to whatever fits better to them.

It's just business sense. Argentina is a country with 30% inflation, very strict and pro-employee labor laws, high degree of government involvement, *very* high taxes, a notoriously bad and convoluted banking system.

But, what you originally said was that you weren't able to handle that level of inflation for another year. And someone jumped in to say that workers can't expect inflation raises because it doesn't make business sense. Then the discussion spiraled about crappy workers and crappy employers.

Did you know all of this before opening shop here?

How were you planning to deal with inflation then?

You said you had fixed income and increasing salary costs.

That doesn't sound like a good deal here.

And when the rules make the game impossible to win, well, the only thing left to do is stop playing.

Good conclusion.

A lot of what you are complaining about has a lot of merit. We can discuss about the possible solutions, and most likely there will be differences (myself as a worker I'm not willing to easily sacrifice what's mine by right).
But also the current state is consequence of what has happened in the country for the last couple of hundred years.
I totally see the culture shock from a lot of people, when they expect things to be exactly like they were where they come from instead of how they are.

You took a risk, made some profit, moved on. Its sad you can't make your business work in Argentina, I guess its not for everyone.

 

[Guillo]

Yeah, tell that to the 10 or so employees loosing their jobs, im sure they will completely agree with you !!! ...am i high !??

You might be high as you said I was HAPPY about it.

Sorry for baffling you ! i really am ! honestly ! anyways, will not read the whole thread again, i know you were fixated on US and foreing inverstors not getting prepared / being knowledgable enough to start businesses here ! not so sure if at some point you mentioned anything about local ones as well (and again, will not go though all of it again).

I really recommend you read the discussion before jumping in and start to get agro on people.
I'm really not going to answer to whatever you fantasize I was saying or getting defensive about it.

 

[Guillo]

As for expectation of 30% or 40% annual raises, well, I do wish you and all the employees good luck with that in the future.

There's INFLATION in Argentina, and it seems to be speeding up. Some unions are already asking over 30%, so I don't think its something out of this world.

 

[notebook.fix]

Ayy Gillo gillo....where do I start with you?

'Haggling'? - Ok...I'm not going to take advantage of your misuse of the English language...I'm just going to point you to a link that will tell you what the definition of that word is...have a look...then come back here & I'll enlighten you just a little further.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/haggling

Ok...you finished looking at that link? great..now...on to your other points...you said :

Too bad you decided to ignore the chance to debate my arguments.

Now...it's not your intellectual prowess or your intelligent point of view that I fear so much...it's more your inability to stop arguing even when you have been proven totally wrong & out of your depth...you will argue till you are blue in the face but you will never admit to your ignorance...here we are looking at yet another employer who has grown tired & exhausted of the constant stupidities & attitudes of some the workers in this country...here we have ten more people loosing their jobs to a system designed to discourage business..and you still DON'T GET IT!

If you are not able to reason & consider things even when you have had your nose rubbed into it...then I don't see the reason to debate you any more. Have a good life hermano.

Glad to see you back here haggling. Too bad you decided to ignore the chance to debate my arguments.

Unlike you, I don't hate you, I don't despise you, I just have my point of view and don't share yours. And unlike you, I accept that several point of view can exist and it doesn't preclude us from being able to discuss issues.

I don't hate businessmen, but I believe I know them, or at least, I've known a bunch of them in my last 20 years working here as employee/outsource in different companies.

I'm not against foreign investment, unless they exploit the workers or expect to be singled out for special treatment just because they want to invest money to make cash to wire out.

Those things I believe, so you can stop putting your panties in a bunch because of my messages. I mean, I see people getting really agressive just because someone posts a message that doesn't align 100% with their values / beliefs.