Gay Marriage Passes in Arg Senate

[AlexfromLA]

 

[VoiceofTruth]

Voice of Truth is just expressing the position of Protestant evangelical Christians. His views may seem shocking to many of the readers of this forum which seems dominated by people who are agnostic or atheist but his views are not anything new or out of the ordinary. Many millions of people around the world think the same way. I don't know if he is trying to impose his views on anyone. It's part of the evangelical belief system to "witness" to people, i.e. to proclaim the Gospel and try to make converts. You may not agree with what he says but he has a right to his views and he has expressed himself very articulately. I would like to ask Voice if he thinks that homosexuality is a learned behaviour or one that is somehow inherent in the individual. It doesn't make any sense to me that anyone would choose to be gay. Why would someone want to be discriminated against? The Catholic Church accepts the possibility that homosexuality is a condition and not necessarily a question of choice. Every evangelical I have met, though, believes that it is a choice. Preachers like Ted Haggard (the mega church founder in Colorado who had sex over a period of many years with a male prostitute) insist that they have been "cured" of homosexuality but I don't believe it. I think they just try to convince themselves that they are straight while they continue to struggle with gay fantasies. Now Voice of Truth, what is your view on all this? Even if we agree that homosexual behaviour is sinful, is the homosexual capable of shedding his homosexual inclinations?

Homosexuality is a choice. And yes they are capable of changing. Homosexuality is a sin, plain and simple. No one is born a homosexual anymore than they are born a drug addict or an alcoholic or a thief. God would not create someone a certain way and then call it a sin.

The world today does not like to call sin what it is. We have renamed everything to make it seem all right. Adultery is now “an affair”. Fornication is “finding yourself” Homosexuality is now “an alternative lifestyle”. It makes it sound O.K. No, they are sin. You said it does not make any sense to choose to be homosexual and face discrimination. I agree, but we don’t always make rational decisions. Why would someone choose to be a drug addict? Why would someone choose to be a racist? Why would someone choose to reject a God who loves them and died for them? A lot of what we do does not make sense. We have a sin nature and are inclined to sin.

I have heard that Argentina is the “psychology capital of South America”. But why don’t they ever quit going to the psychologist? Because the problem is sin and they don’t deal with sin. They look for reason to excuse their sin and until sin is dealt with, the problem will remain.

In response to a different poster, to blame Christians for the high suicide rate among homosexuals is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Maybe it is their guilt for living a lifestyle so opposed to God.

People have such a wrong concept of God. God does not want to judge you, He wants to forgive you. Don’t believe it? How many reading this would die for someone else? How many of you would allow yourself to be beaten so bad that your face is unrecognizable? How many of you would let your self be tied up and have someone whip you until the flesh is ripped off your body down to the bone? That is what Jesus did for you.

Why do some people not come to Jesus? They love their sin. In John 3:17-20, Jesus says, “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.”

One day Joshua said, “choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve”. Joshua 24:15. Ultimately this is what we all must decide, whom will you serve?

God said, “Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that your descendents might live.” Deuteronomy 30:19

Choose carefully.

 

[Lucas]

Cabrera, You missed my point. My statement was a conditional...."even IF we agree...." I asked Voice his views on the NATURE of homosexuality....Is it inherent or is it learned behaviour? I pointed out that evangelicals invariably insist that it is learned, arguing that it can be UN-learned. I want to hear what Voice believes on this issue. I did not express any personal views on the morality of homosexuality, nor did I say that I adhere to evangelical teachings on the subject. You should read more carefully. Also you might be a little less judgmental in criticising people YOU (mistakenly) think are being judgmental! Now I am waiting to hear from Voice.....

Austin don't waste your time with VOT he will reach the bible from his back pocket and lecture you about what it says on the subject and because he has the recorded tape with the voice from the man himself you haven't chance to argue even if you are all right, if is in the Bible, that's it man, and if you don't like it, lump it!

Homosexuality is not acquired by any bad practices or education or anything else nor it's possible to get rid-off it as per ones wishes or cure it like a disease, it comes inbuilt with the individual when he/she was born....that is it, nothing more nothing less.

If and when all powerful humankind is able to manipulate the brains and genes in a way so they can clone and make an Albert Einstein from each of us, then, maybe then will be possible to change an individual by rewiring their brains, but if this ever become a reality and one day be possible to reprogram everyone from a single quality assured sample then an unique and independent enlightened human being will be destroyed and will be re-manufactured to Voice Of Truth specifications, a nice cute and clean churchgoer American guy circa 1950 furnished with a Bible under his arm and a shirt with a black tie or from a generic mold of a boring new asexual human species...GOD Forbid!

 

[Gringoboy]

I completely disagree with you Sir or Madam.
By your interpretation, every human being with a 'flaw' is a sinner.
I am an alcoholic and I believe I was born that way. Ask any alcoholic or anyone with a similar problem.
I attend AA and many members find their faith in God (or God as they understand him/it) has helped them enormously.
But to refer to 'us' as sinners is narrow minded to say the very least.
Furthermore, to say that we are not born homosexuals is again a sweeping and misinformed posture. Ask any gay man or woman and you may find a completely different opinion to that which you have just postulated.

 

[M1ke]

No one is born a homosexual anymore than they are born a drug addict or an alcoholic or a thief.

You are so laughably ignorant that I am quite literally at a loss for words. Perhaps it's time to go back to school? And by "school" I mean a genuine educational institution, not a special "religious" school where the root cause of everything in life and the universe is explained as being magic and requires no basis in logic, reason or fact.

Homosexuality is a choice. And yes they are capable of changing. Homosexuality is a sin, plain and simple.

I can't do it. I really can't read your wildly inaccurate, vile hate-speech any longer. Please take your very old, frequently re-translated and endlessly misinterpreted storybook elsewhere. You are welcome to your strange and archaic beliefs, but do not presume to force them on the rest of us.

 

[manuski]

I attend AA and many members find their faith in God (or God as they understand him/it) has helped them enormously.
But to refer to 'us' as sinners is narrow minded to say the very least.

The bible teaches (Romans 3:23) that we are ALL sinners.

You are so laughably ignorant that I am quite literally at a loss for words. Perhaps it's time to go back to school? And by "school" I mean a genuine educational institution, not a special "religious" school where the root cause of everything in life and the universe is explained as being magic and requires no basis in logic, reason or fact.

As pointed out by another poster. These are not only the views of VoT, these are views shared by billions of people! Are you saying that all Christians are laughably ignorant or are you just refering to VoT? Serious question by the way.

 

[M1ke]

As pointed out by another poster. These are not only the views of VoT, these are views shared by billions of people! Are you saying that all Christians are laughably ignorant or are you just refering to VoT? Serious question by the way.

No. I'm saying anyone who believes sexuality is a conscious choice is laughably ignorant, be they Christian or otherwise, and whether they number in the billions or tens.

 

[cabrera]

Voice of truth is a symptom of repression of a man struggling with his desires and his guilt .There are millions of these people who turn to the church to cure them of their perceived sin. Most of them never cure themselves and become mentally diseased and prey on our young as the case of the pedophilia and the priest . Sexually repressed people are a huge danger to our society and this is caused by the church and most religions . This is fact

They struggle all their lives and in the end for what to end up in a perceived heaven full of virgins or another fantasy designed to control our natural inclinations.

 

[French jurist]

As pointed out by another poster. These are not only the views of VoT, these are views shared by billions of people! Are you saying that all Christians are laughably ignorant or are you just refering to VoT? Serious question by the way.

Excellent point (millions better than billions though, of course).

All three Abrahamic religions can be roughly divided in-between three groups, I'll focus on Protestantism since we are mentionning VoT (same applies to Catholicism too within Christians) :
- The rationalists (liberals) : They accept the fact the Bible needs to be understood on a symbolical point of view, influence by Humanism, etc...
- The Evangelists : they take the Bible as a strict reference.
- The Charismatics (includes Pentecostists) : more mystical way living their religion

Now, the first group will rather be tolerant, open-minded, will accept controversy/different opinions.

The problem is that the two last categories can lead to sectarian/proselytic behaviours. They are a minority, but a dangerous one.
It's the same thing for Judaism, Islam. (EDIT : Not to be misunderstood, what I was meaning is that there can be found a minority among those two last groups that will be prone to proselytism / sectarian behavior. And again, it is the same among Muslims, Jews and Catholics)

Now, when VoT (Voice of Truth !) writes his first post in the thread :

"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin." Leviticus 18:22

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them". Leviticus 20:13

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

God made a law many years ago a little different from this one. Man's laws do not supercede God's laws.

You know where he lies in-between those groups.

VoT does not represent, nor Protestantism, nor Evangelists, nor Pentecostists, he represents the most biggot group, the most narrow-minded, the most proselytic one.

Now reading

In response to a different poster, to blame Christians for the high suicide rate among homosexuals is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Maybe it is their guilt for living a lifestyle so opposed to God.

I am the poster who wrote that and I did because I lost my cousin who was like a brother and who commited suicide at age 27, and I suspect he did so for an hidden homosexuality.
Now, I was not blaming the Christians, I was blaming you and I find it a bit strange that your words represent Christianity... Voice of Truth, Voice of God, Voice of Christianity : hard work you have !

---

Again, in my view, this discussion does not oppose believers/atheists/agnostics, it opposes biggots from ANY religion (your islamic counterpart = talibans) to rationalists whether they believe or not in a specific religion.

Sects and sectarian speeches are a plague that needs to be opposed actively.
Absolute freedom of expression can give birth to monsters, it is a very important Right but that should be limited, like Antoine de Saint Just said "pas de tolérance pour les ennemis de la tolérance" (no tolerance for tolerance ennemies).

 

[MLK]

Thinly veiled 'it's acceptable to stick your member in the bottom of another male' thread.