Get your pots out for the lads!
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nicoenarg
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dennisr said:
"And then the next ones ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win...." and it continues until you can come up with what it is that you're actually fighting for. Because it is never enough to fight against someone, you have to fight for something to seal the deal!
I guess I don't really know what the best manner to protest is, but I have to respect those who actually are protesting.
I don't know if the cacerolazos in 2008 (2009? forget now which year) ended up doing any good, but I do remember that her vice president stood up to her when it came to signing into law even higher export tariffs than were already there. Of course, a lot of that had to do with the road blocks and other methods of those outside the city who were protesting. but in the end, it came together to deny her the raise in tariffs she was seeking. And the cacerolazos were on that side.
The thing is, what do you do when you are a minority and the government is rolling all over you? When you have little to no effect in the voting booth? I'm sure those who are out banging pots and pans are not those who have voted the present idiots into power.
I don't think there are many poor out banging pots and pans. Certainly no Peronistas. The people who are out doing that feel disenfranchised and hopeless, but at least they are out doing something.
But what else can they do? Armed revolution? Bring out their own thugs and beat poor people and Peronistas up at the poll when they go to vote? Maybe revolution is the only thing that will work in the end, and that for sure is extremely dangerous without a clear stated goal, working towards a common result.
The government has so effectively silenced any meaningful opposition here that anyone actually running stands almost no chance. Yes, the "movement" (what there is of one) is not very coordinated, but that is because they are at a huge disadvantage and have been all their lives, as far as how to organize and produce a coherent movement.
I applaud them for at least being vocal about what's going on. Maybe it doesn't do much good, but they're not sitting on their rear ends and just grumbling about things.
I don't know if the cacerolazos in 2008 (2009? forget now which year) ended up doing any good, but I do remember that her vice president stood up to her when it came to signing into law even higher export tariffs than were already there. Of course, a lot of that had to do with the road blocks and other methods of those outside the city who were protesting. but in the end, it came together to deny her the raise in tariffs she was seeking. And the cacerolazos were on that side.
The thing is, what do you do when you are a minority and the government is rolling all over you? When you have little to no effect in the voting booth? I'm sure those who are out banging pots and pans are not those who have voted the present idiots into power.
I don't think there are many poor out banging pots and pans. Certainly no Peronistas. The people who are out doing that feel disenfranchised and hopeless, but at least they are out doing something.
But what else can they do? Armed revolution? Bring out their own thugs and beat poor people and Peronistas up at the poll when they go to vote? Maybe revolution is the only thing that will work in the end, and that for sure is extremely dangerous without a clear stated goal, working towards a common result.
The government has so effectively silenced any meaningful opposition here that anyone actually running stands almost no chance. Yes, the "movement" (what there is of one) is not very coordinated, but that is because they are at a huge disadvantage and have been all their lives, as far as how to organize and produce a coherent movement.
I applaud them for at least being vocal about what's going on. Maybe it doesn't do much good, but they're not sitting on their rear ends and just grumbling about things.
As to my earlier comments about Mubarak I see that everything is happening right on schedule:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...-j888A?docId=7c4c6ef36e9a49af953e722b061a0dbe
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...-j888A?docId=7c4c6ef36e9a49af953e722b061a0dbe
Gringoboy
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Matt84 said:
I thought I'd made it clear in other posts that I'm a resident of this country and suffer the same problems as many of the citizens.
Doing nothing is exactly that. NOTHING.
Any suggestions from your end Matt? No?
Thought not.
Do not know how many times I have said to myself, why do these people put up with this BS? Heartwarming to see the people do something rather than just rollover and play dead.
*The dismantling of the Berlin Wall/Soviet Union started out with a bunch of disorganized groups and no clear plan, all they did know, the situation they were in sucked. The rest is history.
*The dismantling of the Berlin Wall/Soviet Union started out with a bunch of disorganized groups and no clear plan, all they did know, the situation they were in sucked. The rest is history.
Gringoboy said:
Sometimes it's better to do nothing.
Suggestions for the cacerolazo evening?
A) Stay at home or work wearing headphones.
B) Go outside and document the fiesta. Maybe join in strictly for fun.
Out of suggestions.
dennisr said:
That is simply not true.
There are many theories as to how and why ther Wall and the 'Evil Empire' collapsed. Some, Libertarians, say it collapsed under its own weight. Dmitry Orlov says it was peak oil that finished it. Realpolitik types assure us that America simply won the arms race with Star Wars.
On the other hand the bunch of disorganized groups with no clear plan that protested in Czechoslovakia in the 60s were crushed by tanks.
What would have been the best path for a Soviet or satellite citizen?
Protest? Armed Counter-Revolution? No! Either rise up within the system or escape to the West!
nicoenarg
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Do I think this protest is BS? No
Do I think anything solid and permanent is going to come of it? No!
I respect these people for getting up and banging their pots, whether I agree with the way they carry out these protests is another matter. They are fighting for things I too care about since I am a resident in this country and have Argentine family. So I thank them for the effort that they're making.
I'm merely pointing out that this is going to go nowhere.
The example of Berlin wall was given. You can't compare these protesters with those at the Berlin Wall because if I remember what I read correctly, the East and West Germans didn't go to the Kremlin with their pots. They chipped away at the wall with hammers and took bricks away with their hands (once it started, very early on, heavy machinery was brought in). Of course I could be wrong about what I'm saying. My information about the fall of the Berlin Wall comes only through books and old news videos and articles. I was 4 years old when it happened. So correct me if I'm wrong.
So what am I advocating? Armed revolution? Violence? No. If in the mind of the people the only choice they have is either armed revolution or banging pots. Then I say bang away! You have nothing else that you are capable of doing anyway.
What I am suggesting people do (on top of what they're already doing) is to gather behind a leader. Someone who is different. Someone who is not a Peronist. Someone who understands that leaders of countries REPRESENT the people, not dictate what the people should do. Someone who understands that their salary comes from the people, someone who understands that they have been elected by the people. Someone who understands that the people who put them in power are not idiots, that they should be consulted before their lives are turned upside down.
Someone who understands that they will be held responsible and pay the price if they try to play with the lives and property of the people.
Am I expecting too much? Perhaps (and I am aware that my idea of a government may be too perfect and not possible, but I'm sure some of it can be achieved). But seriously, how many elections have these people gone through and how many protests? Is Argentine democracy so broken that people can't elect someone who represents them? If so, then not only is this protest pointless, there is no hope whatsoever.
I watched the video that I mentioned and I agreed with every single thing that the video said. Everything they're frustrated with frustrates me too. However, they ended the video with "we don't want these leaders to change, we just want them to listen to us." Its sad that to the people, it seems, the only choice is to choose between either a dictatorial Peronist/fascist government or a dictatorial, murderous military government. And if that's the case and the reality as the Argentine public perceives it then I feel sorry for the people here and the generations to come.
Anyway, my point was and still is that while these protests are a start, they are not going to go anywhere unless the people are willing to band together behind an opposition leader who can stand up to not just Cristina but Peronism. Again, unless the people are willing to free themselves of the shackles of Peron, they will come out and bang pots every 3-4 years, and then go home because they got a small victory at the time or got tired. Only to come back again in another 3-4 years.
In the end, either what I said above makes sense or I'm just a tired and beaten 26 year old who's looking at Argentina through the lens of the Egyptian movement.
Do I think anything solid and permanent is going to come of it? No!
I respect these people for getting up and banging their pots, whether I agree with the way they carry out these protests is another matter. They are fighting for things I too care about since I am a resident in this country and have Argentine family. So I thank them for the effort that they're making.
I'm merely pointing out that this is going to go nowhere.
The example of Berlin wall was given. You can't compare these protesters with those at the Berlin Wall because if I remember what I read correctly, the East and West Germans didn't go to the Kremlin with their pots. They chipped away at the wall with hammers and took bricks away with their hands (once it started, very early on, heavy machinery was brought in). Of course I could be wrong about what I'm saying. My information about the fall of the Berlin Wall comes only through books and old news videos and articles. I was 4 years old when it happened. So correct me if I'm wrong.
So what am I advocating? Armed revolution? Violence? No. If in the mind of the people the only choice they have is either armed revolution or banging pots. Then I say bang away! You have nothing else that you are capable of doing anyway.
What I am suggesting people do (on top of what they're already doing) is to gather behind a leader. Someone who is different. Someone who is not a Peronist. Someone who understands that leaders of countries REPRESENT the people, not dictate what the people should do. Someone who understands that their salary comes from the people, someone who understands that they have been elected by the people. Someone who understands that the people who put them in power are not idiots, that they should be consulted before their lives are turned upside down.
Someone who understands that they will be held responsible and pay the price if they try to play with the lives and property of the people.
Am I expecting too much? Perhaps (and I am aware that my idea of a government may be too perfect and not possible, but I'm sure some of it can be achieved). But seriously, how many elections have these people gone through and how many protests? Is Argentine democracy so broken that people can't elect someone who represents them? If so, then not only is this protest pointless, there is no hope whatsoever.
I watched the video that I mentioned and I agreed with every single thing that the video said. Everything they're frustrated with frustrates me too. However, they ended the video with "we don't want these leaders to change, we just want them to listen to us." Its sad that to the people, it seems, the only choice is to choose between either a dictatorial Peronist/fascist government or a dictatorial, murderous military government. And if that's the case and the reality as the Argentine public perceives it then I feel sorry for the people here and the generations to come.
Anyway, my point was and still is that while these protests are a start, they are not going to go anywhere unless the people are willing to band together behind an opposition leader who can stand up to not just Cristina but Peronism. Again, unless the people are willing to free themselves of the shackles of Peron, they will come out and bang pots every 3-4 years, and then go home because they got a small victory at the time or got tired. Only to come back again in another 3-4 years.
In the end, either what I said above makes sense or I'm just a tired and beaten 26 year old who's looking at Argentina through the lens of the Egyptian movement.
Do not wish to get into a dick measuring contest on the merits of a plan or no plan concerning dissent. All I know is what I see. The spirit of the Argentine people is broken. Gone are the happy faces and any degree of hope for the future. For these people to just give up and not display their dissatisfaction because they have no specific or laid out plan is beyond my ability to comprehend. Everything starts out in stumbling, faltering baby steps. So, we will agree to disagree.
Take care and good luck.
Take care and good luck.
nicoenarg
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dennisr said:
Didn't say they shouldn't display their dissatisfaction. I'll repeat myself, if all these people THINK they can do is bang pots, then that's what they should do. Sitting at home is not going to do anything whatsoever. However, my point is, and will remain, that whatever change they get through this, if any, will be temporary. The next time around when they're forced to get out on the streets and bang pots, their spirits will be broken even more and their hopes will be crushed or snuffed even further.
dennisr said:
And so we shall. Although it doesn't seem like we disagree on a lot.
dennisr said:
You too, sir!
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