Is President Kirchner Improving The Lives Of Argentinos?

[Matiasba]

Open your eyes for crying out loud.
The health, education and prosperity of a nation is not the exclusive right of the poor.

But they are the majority, and besides the other part is the wealthiest part, so they can cover those issues very well, in fact they do, they pay for private school, healthcare, etc, leaving the public health and education to the poor.

The upper classes in this country is the main problem here. They dont invest, they dont ask for good public education & health, which they should since they are the more powerfull people and they do have the elements to fight for. They dont even have a political representation. Their political power was in the hands of the military corporation along the XXth century and now in another corporation, the media.
When they could, they sold out their industries, almost all of them, in the 90s, to american corporations, and put their money in Switzerland or in hedge funds. Never invested a penny for this country to grow, unlike the upper classes of Brazil, Chile, Colombia...
They dont have a project of a country, they d love to live in a central american island, un pais bananero.

 

[Matiasba]

Which Argentinos? Some are better off - at least temporarily - but the country as a whole? No. There isn't any real growth... and without growth, you can't have industry or jobs or prosperity.

Shortsightedness will come back to bite.

Excuse me, but the 10 years of growth is a fact that no one denies. This government is the most pro-industria since the dictadura.

 

[Matiasba]

Argentina is still a poor country. Most of the 53% of poverty we had in 2002 are still in a vulnerability situation, so they can perfectly go down when the recession cycle comes, or some government freezes their retirement pension or eliminates social plans. Its not like they re safe now. It is very dynamic. Although, most of that number werent extreme poverty, excluded people, but a new phenomenon called "pobreza puertas adentro" people who used to be middle class, that do have a home and they are educated but they cant afford to have two meals per day, for instance. They were the new poors.

Then we have the traditionals poors, the majority migrants from Paraguay, Bolivia and Peru. And also a small part of that are from the poorer provinces of Argentina. They live in villas and dont have a problem with that. That number went up tremendosuly in the past 15 years. They multiplied like for ten. Those are excluded that dont have any education, they get a gun at the age of 12 and go and fight for their lives. Since 2001 crisis these people have a very new problem that have been increasing year after year: drugs. Particularly, the paco. They lost their lives with that, and they have a deep need to found more and more to consume, so they dont care if you have a life, kids, 100 pesos or nothing. They will shoot you easily. Their parents send them to work because they cannot send them to school. Thats what the social program was designed for, get out the kids from the street and send them to school.

Of course that it would be better if these people instead of the plan gets a job, en blanco, etc, but its soooooo difficult for a government to create a job. They say its like a million pesos per job created. Or even more. Still, we have like 30% of empleo en negro (Peru, Ecuador, etc, has like 60%) and 20 years ago that was near to 5%. The 90s heritage.

There are lots of first and second generation of immigrants from neighboring countries, and because of the tradition this country has with immigration, plus the new "Latinamerica united" thing, nobody wants to change the law, which is very lax indeed and since they feel better here than in their home countries, they will continue coming.

 

[Crema Americana]

Excuse me, but the 10 years of growth is a fact that no one denies. This government is the most pro-industria since the dictadura.

Real growth. Sure, industria Argentina has gone up - they are assembling tvs and phones and 'making' refrigerators and Cristina is very proud of that. But if it wasn't for the government propping these industries up (by blocking imports, tariffs, and giving governmental assistance) these industries would crumble. REAL industry would be something that Argentina could export, that is appreciated by both Argentines and foreigners, and not government sponsored (usually substandard) products which they then force their citizens to buy. It's simply an unsustainable jobs program. The government shouldn't be 'creating jobs' - they should provide an environment where business and private enterprise will create them. But no, it's just easier to create a big lie and then blame others when things fall apart.

Some people are getting very rich while others -the middle class that work and pay taxes- pay for it... and the poor get enough bones thrown at them to keep them happy and quiet. Argentina will always be a step behind unless they can better educated their citizens, innovate, and take advantage of their strengths.

If I actually thought that true industry was happening in Argentina (starting with education and an investment in technology, infrastructure, and research), I'd be more supportive of some of the protectionist policies... but I don't think that's the case.

 

[citygirl]

Excuse me, but the 10 years of growth is a fact that no one denies. This government is the most pro-industria since the dictadura.

By this, I"m guessing you a) are not a business person and B) have never run a business.

 

[lamarque]

But they are the majority, and besides the other part is the wealthiest part, so they can cover those issues very well, in fact they do, they pay for private school, healthcare, etc, leaving the public health and education to the poor.

The upper classes in this country is the main problem here. They dont invest, they dont ask for good public education & health, which they should since they are the more powerfull people and they do have the elements to fight for. They dont even have a political representation. Their political power was in the hands of the military corporation along the XXth century and now in another corporation, the media.
When they could, they sold out their industries, almost all of them, in the 90s, to american corporations, and put their money in Switzerland or in hedge funds. Never invested a penny for this country to grow, unlike the upper classes of Brazil, Chile, Colombia...
They dont have a project of a country, they d love to live in a central american island, un pais bananero.

Lol you have no idea, if the upper class don't invest is because of the stupid populism that drive the politics in this country. And if you happen to be of one of this upper classes and invest in this country then people will call you ''gorila'' because you did rasonably well investing in the farms or in what ever bussines and then the government will tax all your profit.

 

[lamarque]

Argentina is still a poor country. Most of the 53% of poverty we had in 2002 are still in a vulnerability situation, so they can perfectly go down when the recession cycle comes, or some government freezes their retirement pension or eliminates social plans. Its not like they re safe now. It is very dynamic. Although, most of that number werent extreme poverty, excluded people, but a new phenomenon called "pobreza puertas adentro" people who used to be middle class, that do have a home and they are educated but they cant afford to have two meals per day, for instance. They were the new poors.

Then we have the traditionals poors, the majority migrants from Paraguay, Bolivia and Peru. And also a small part of that are from the poorer provinces of Argentina. They live in villas and dont have a problem with that. That number went up tremendosuly in the past 15 years. They multiplied like for ten. Those are excluded that dont have any education, they get a gun at the age of 12 and go and fight for their lives. Since 2001 crisis these people have a very new problem that have been increasing year after year: drugs. Particularly, the paco. They lost their lives with that, and they have a deep need to found more and more to consume, so they dont care if you have a life, kids, 100 pesos or nothing. They will shoot you easily. Their parents send them to work because they cannot send them to school. Thats what the social program was designed for, get out the kids from the street and send them to school.

Of course that it would be better if these people instead of the plan gets a job, en blanco, etc, but its soooooo difficult to a government to create a job. They say its like a million pesos per job created. Or even more. Still, we have like 30% of empleo en negro (Peru, Ecuador, etc, has like 60%) and 20 years ago that was near to 5%. The 90s heritage.

There are lots of first and second generation of immigrants from neighboring countries, and because of the tradition this country has with immigration, plus the new "Latinamerica united" thing nobody wants to change the law, which is very lax indeed and since they feel better here than in their home countries, they will continue coming.

You know why the stupid politicians here need 1 millon to create a job, simple 994.000 for the corrupt pocket 6000 to pay the new employ

 

[Matiasba]

Real growth. Sure, industria Argentina has gone up - they are assembling tvs and phones and 'making' refrigerators and Cristina is very proud of that. But if it wasn't for the government propping these industries up (by blocking imports, tariffs, and giving governmental assistance) these industries would crumble. REAL industry would be something that Argentina could export, that is appreciated by both Argentines and foreigners, and not government sponsored (usually substandard) products which they then force their citizens to buy. It's simply an unsustainable jobs program. The government shouldn't be 'creating jobs' - they should provide an environment where business and private enterprise will create them. But no, it's just easier to create a big lie and then blame others when things fall apart.

Some people are getting very rich while others -the middle class that work and pay taxes- pay for it... and the poor get enough bones thrown at them to keep them happy and quiet. Argentina will always be a step behind unless they can better educated their citizens, innovate, and take advantage of their strengths.

If I actually thought that true industry was happening in Argentina (starting with education and an investment in technology, infrastructure, and research), I'd be more supportive of some of the protectionist policies... but I don't think that's the case.

The problem is that industry on this country is not the more competitive sector. It is the agro the one that brings the dollars to the country. So the industry need to be subsidized, because is not competitive, and can not do well in the international market. It was like that in the XXth century and now with China and the southeast asia much more. Agais, as I said before, is that no one wants to invest in Argentina, neither the argentines that can. That is a problem that this government had, and I beleave they could have managed better, but they do have and had pro-industria and development policies.
The thing started to stop when the import restrictions, but that was because they wanted to slow than the growth because of the inflation. The same as Brazil did.

 

[Matiasba]

Lol you have no idea, if the upper class don't invest is because of the stupid populism that drive the politics in this country. And if you happen to be of one of this upper classes and invest in this country then people will call you ''gorila'' because you did rasonably well investing in the farms or in what ever

Ok, so tell me why, when they could invest in this country, in the 90s, when they had EVERYTHING on their favor, when populism didnt exist, they had credits, they had economical and political stability, they decided to SOLD their enterprises to the americans.

 

[Matiasba]

By this, I"m guessing you a) are not a business person and B) have never run a business.

Dont understand. You dont have to run a bussiness to understand the socio-economical map of a country.