Is the expat party coming to an end?

[Ries]

I think the original poster is saying it's a "party" because prices are so low now if you have dollars/Euros.

not compared to 2002-2008, when it was really really cheap. I knew a Canadian professor who bought an apartment on the Soho side of Scalabrini for $35k, then, and La Cabrera was like ten bucks. That was the time of expats actually partying.

 

[perry]

not compared to 2002-2008, when it was really really cheap. I knew a Canadian professor who bought an apartment on the Soho side of Scalabrini for $35k, then, and La Cabrera was like ten bucks. That was the time of expats actually partying.

I do not understand how anyone honestly believes it cheap here . Food rentals the main cost of people are higher in us dollars than ever before . Good parillas are minimum uS 20 per person but if you go to Don Julio expect to pay Us $ 80 per person now . Don julio was a absolute bargain until 2021 . Us $ 20 was a normal price now 4 times more expensive

 

[mageesa]

I do not understand how anyone honestly believes it cheap here . Food rentals the main cost of people are higher in us dollars than ever before . Good parillas are minimum uS 20 per person but if you go to Don Julio expect to pay Us $ 80 per person now . Don julio was a absolute bargain until 2021 . Us $ 20 was a normal price now 4 times more expensive

I go to steak places that run about $8 for a steak that I can share with a friend, the bus is six cents to get there and then I can go dancing for $2USD afterwards, or go the opera for under $10... I guess it depends what you get up to. Don Julio is great, but is it 7x as great as some other place?

In other words, the expat party continues for people who are happy to be eating any steak.

 

[Ries]

I go to steak places that run about $8 for a steak that I can share with a friend, the bus is six cents to get there and then I can go dancing for $2USD afterwards, or go the opera for under $10... I guess it depends what you get up to. Don Julio is great, but is it 7x as great as some other place?

In other words, the expat party continues for people who are happy to be eating any steak.

Obviously, its all relative.
It depends on what you consider "normal", how much money you have, and how you live. We mostly go out to eat a couple of times a week, and eat at home the rest of the time. All of our groceries are a fraction of what we are used to in Washington State- where a good blue cheese can run $25 a pound, where organic vegetables cost at least triple what they cost here, where milk and chicken and eggs are all much more expensive. I always though Don Julio was way overpriced- and find that most of the time in the last few months we do eat out, the two of us dine very well on $10 to $15 a person at relatively fancy places. And a tavern burger in the US these days is twenty bucks, a beer is 8.
We bought our apartment in 2007, so rising rents dont figure into my math. My ABL taxes here for my apt are a tiny fraction of US taxes. My utilities are so cheap its a joke, I spend ten times on electricity every month for my US place, whether I am there or not.
So, for someone who is used to budgeting for US prices, its cheap.
Obviously, its very expensive for most of my friends who earn in pesos, ie 95% of the population.
We recently went to Franca, which is on the Michellin list. The food was excellent, and we spent what for us was probably the most we have spent on a meal, by far, in 3 months here- 50,000 pesos. That included a gigantic bife that was far better than what I have been served at Don Julio, and some of the most amazing side dishes- asado grilled asparagus, cordero tataki, a gigantic salad with wonderful organic greens, and an addictive desert. We dont drink at restaurants, by and large, and that is a factor, for sure, but in Seattle, that meal would easily have been at least triple. My son works in a fixed price restaurant in Seattle with meals at $100 and the wine flight at an additional $68, which means almost $200 a person, and its hardly the most expensive in town. NYC prices are much much higher.
In general, people who live here, be they argentine or expat, have a very dated idea of what prices are in North America these days. (Canada is much more expensive- we live near the border, and go there often)
food, utilities, transportation, health care, and much more are cheaper by far here than in the US, IN DOLLARS.
The problems of people who earn pesos are much bigger.

 

[mageesa]

Obviously, its all relative.
It depends on what you consider "normal", how much money you have, and how you live. We mostly go out to eat a couple of times a week, and eat at home the rest of the time. All of our groceries are a fraction of what we are used to in Washington State- where a good blue cheese can run $25 a pound, where organic vegetables cost at least triple what they cost here, where milk and chicken and eggs are all much more expensive. I always though Don Julio was way overpriced- and find that most of the time in the last few months we do eat out, the two of us dine very well on $10 to $15 a person at relatively fancy places. And a tavern burger in the US these days is twenty bucks, a beer is 8.
We bought our apartment in 2007, so rising rents dont figure into my math. My ABL taxes here for my apt are a tiny fraction of US taxes. My utilities are so cheap its a joke, I spend ten times on electricity every month for my US place, whether I am there or not.
So, for someone who is used to budgeting for US prices, its cheap.
Obviously, its very expensive for most of my friends who earn in pesos, ie 95% of the population.
We recently went to Franca, which is on the Michellin list. The food was excellent, and we spent what for us was probably the most we have spent on a meal, by far, in 3 months here- 50,000 pesos. That included a gigantic bife that was far better than what I have been served at Don Julio, and some of the most amazing side dishes- asado grilled asparagus, cordero tataki, a gigantic salad with wonderful organic greens, and an addictive desert. We dont drink at restaurants, by and large, and that is a factor, for sure, but in Seattle, that meal would easily have been at least triple. My son works in a fixed price restaurant in Seattle with meals at $100 and the wine flight at an additional $68, which means almost $200 a person, and its hardly the most expensive in town. NYC prices are much much higher.
In general, people who live here, be they argentine or expat, have a very dated idea of what prices are in North America these days. (Canada is much more expensive- we live near the border, and go there often)
food, utilities, transportation, health care, and much more are cheaper by far here than in the US, IN DOLLARS.
The problems of people who earn pesos are much bigger.

Yeah even I have a dated sense of prices. I saw a roast chicken here for 6000 pesos and I thought, oh that's almost as much as the USA. But my friend back there told me that chicken would be $12 now. I just don't buy them at home.

 

[sergio]

Seems like 3 very different groups get lumped together as "expats". And I find it dubious there is much of a party here in Argentina.
There are longer term tourists- people who stay for 3 to 24 months, but never had any intention of settling down. There were far more of these in the early 2000's, when the coralito wiped out prices, and it was possible to coast here on dollar liters of beer and $150 a month hostels.
But never a really significant number, compared to lots of places like Mexico or Thailand.
I would place the recent influx of russians in this group- they are temporary refugees with money, and Argentina was easy to enter and doesnt make any effort to deport them, but longterm, they want to be in Miami or London or NYC or Paris.

There are retirees from rich countries, but, again, as a group, they are a pretty small number- I know all the online facebook and blogs are dominated by this type of person (of which I am one), but in reality, its probably not more than a few thousand, I would be amazed if there were 10,000 in the 15 million person BA metropolitan area.

Then, there are the real expats- people who came here to live, usually because its a better economy than where they came from. Paraguayan cab drivers, Bolivian produce sellers, Venezuelan restraunteurs, African street vendors, Syrian falafel makers- I see these people every day all over town.
The total Argentine expat number is estimated at 5% of population, which probably doesnt even put us in the top fifty, globally. But of that, the vast majority, probably 1.8 million of those 2 million expats are not here because its cheap, they are here because its easier to make more money than where they came from.
They will ride out whatever happens, put down roots, and their grandchildren will be here.

NYC has 40% of its population who were born in another country. BA? maybe 3%. Its just not a place that is really influenced by expats or immigration at this time, even though historically, almost everyone is descended from immigrants.

I would say, that, in reality, the expat party here has always been tiny, and mostly made of people who either came for love, or have enough money to ride it out.
It aint Bali.

Those from places like Senegal and Venezuela are economic refugees. They will likely become citizens. These cannot be considered expats in the same way that people who post here are expats. These poor immigrants were never having a party. Many of those who post here have hard currency, mostly dollars, come from developed countries like the USA and UK and could very well stay and live where they came from. They aren't street salesmen or Uber drivers. Instead they came to Argentina where they have moeny to dine out frequently and discuss which high end parrilla is the best.

 

[sergio]

Obviously, its all relative.
It depends on what you consider "normal", how much money you have, and how you live. We mostly go out to eat a couple of times a week, and eat at home the rest of the time. All of our groceries are a fraction of what we are used to in Washington State- where a good blue cheese can run $25 a pound, where organic vegetables cost at least triple what they cost here, where milk and chicken and eggs are all much more expensive. I always though Don Julio was way overpriced- and find that most of the time in the last few months we do eat out, the two of us dine very well on $10 to $15 a person at relatively fancy places. And a tavern burger in the US these days is twenty bucks, a beer is 8.
We bought our apartment in 2007, so rising rents dont figure into my math. My ABL taxes here for my apt are a tiny fraction of US taxes. My utilities are so cheap its a joke, I spend ten times on electricity every month for my US place, whether I am there or not.
So, for someone who is used to budgeting for US prices, its cheap.
Obviously, its very expensive for most of my friends who earn in pesos, ie 95% of the population.
We recently went to Franca, which is on the Michellin list. The food was excellent, and we spent what for us was probably the most we have spent on a meal, by far, in 3 months here- 50,000 pesos. That included a gigantic bife that was far better than what I have been served at Don Julio, and some of the most amazing side dishes- asado grilled asparagus, cordero tataki, a gigantic salad with wonderful organic greens, and an addictive desert. We dont drink at restaurants, by and large, and that is a factor, for sure, but in Seattle, that meal would easily have been at least triple. My son works in a fixed price restaurant in Seattle with meals at $100 and the wine flight at an additional $68, which means almost $200 a person, and its hardly the most expensive in town. NYC prices are much much higher.
In general, people who live here, be they argentine or expat, have a very dated idea of what prices are in North America these days. (Canada is much more expensive- we live near the border, and go there often)
food, utilities, transportation, health care, and much more are cheaper by far here than in the US, IN DOLLARS.
The problems of people who earn pesos are much bigger.

This is all true. A glass of wine in NYC is easily U$S 15 or more plus 30% tax and tip. That's for a glass. The subway is U$S 2.90. London is £2.50 off peak zone 1 base fare which is more expensive. DON JULIO shouldn't be the metric. But if it must be, compare it with a place like Rules in London where a cocktail costs £18 - and there are far more expensive restaurants in London. Home prices? In the millions of £

 

[Ries]

As I said above, the type of "expat" that posts here is a tiny community in Argentina, a few thousand people.
Over the 15 years I have been posting here, I have met in person probably a half dozen people who post here.
Unlike a couple of posters here who never fail to tell us how rich they are, all the people I have met are living here on between $1000, and $2000 USD a month- which is NOT a lot of money in any European or North American country.
You cannot live in any US city for 24,000 a year. A Studio Apartment in almost every US City is a thousand dollars a month. 3 grand in NYC. Medicare supplemental is usually another couple of grand a year. Utilities can easily run 200 a month. Forget about owning a car on that income, or eating at a US steakhouse.
So, yes, the people who post here do better than the great majority of Argentines, but they would mostly be considered extremely poor in their home countries. The minimum US social security payment is now $800 a month. It would be very difficult to live on that here, in Argentina, unless you had a family to back you up with a guarantia.

 

[sergio]

As I said above, the type of "expat" that posts here is a tiny community in Argentina, a few thousand people.
Over the 15 years I have been posting here, I have met in person probably a half dozen people who post here.
Unlike a couple of posters here who never fail to tell us how rich they are, all the people I have met are living here on between $1000, and $2000 USD a month- which is NOT a lot of money in any European or North American country.
You cannot live in any US city for 24,000 a year. A Studio Apartment in almost every US City is a thousand dollars a month. 3 grand in NYC. Medicare supplemental is usually another couple of grand a year. Utilities can easily run 200 a month. Forget about owning a car on that income, or eating at a US steakhouse.
So, yes, the people who post here do better than the great majority of Argentines, but they would mostly be considered extremely poor in their home countries. The minimum US social security payment is now $800 a month. It would be very difficult to live on that here, in Argentina, unless you had a family to back you up with a guarantia.

I agree with you that the expats who post on this site are a tiny group. I am not sure about their incomes but you may be right that they are relatively poor. Are these expats homeowners in BA? If so, their U$S 1,000-2,000 (presumably net, right?) incomes will go far at the present rate of exchange. You are correct about rents (even higher in cities like London). One point on which you might be mistaken is about the Medicare Supplemental. I have heard the Medicare Advantage plans are becoming more popular and these often require no supplemental charges. I wonder how older expats who have emigrated to Argentina are able to buy health insurance plans. After age 65 the rates are very high if you haven't been a member for years; I wonder if you can even get accepted after age 65.

 

[sergio]

As I said above, the type of "expat" that posts here is a tiny community in Argentina, a few thousand people.
Over the 15 years I have been posting here, I have met in person probably a half dozen people who post here.
Unlike a couple of posters here who never fail to tell us how rich they are, all the people I have met are living here on between $1000, and $2000 USD a month- which is NOT a lot of money in any European or North American country.
You cannot live in any US city for 24,000 a year. A Studio Apartment in almost every US City is a thousand dollars a month. 3 grand in NYC. Medicare supplemental is usually another couple of grand a year. Utilities can easily run 200 a month. Forget about owning a car on that income, or eating at a US steakhouse.
So, yes, the people who post here do better than the great majority of Argentines, but they would mostly be considered extremely poor in their home countries. The minimum US social security payment is now $800 a month. It would be very difficult to live on that here, in Argentina, unless you had a family to back you up with a guarantia.

I'd add that a lot of US people have private pensions/annuities or other savings plans in addition to their Social Security and for those who are legally below the poverty line there is subsidised housing which can be good. I visited someone in Seattle who lives in subsidised housing in a nice area. She pays a modest % of her income for a one BR apartment. I think there are ways a person can live decently on U$S 24,000 a year in US with some ingenuity. There are also a lot of senior services available to those on low incomes. Those who come to Argentina are the more adventurous people I suspect.