You Know You're Living In A 3Rd World Country When...

Seems to me a lot of that comes from a feeling of "it's not fair." It's not fair that someone else should live in luxury and I don't, It's not fair that they get to travel when they want and I'm struggling to feed my family. It's not fair that my great-great-great-grandparents were slaves and yours were the master. It's not fair that I am required to actually seek my place in society and fit in and try to be productive - it's too much work. It's not fair that the company wants to lay me off and I have to find another job.

But that's ok - that's one of the reasons the founders of the US said we were free to pursue happiness, not to have it. It was something unique around the world that a country put itself together from scratch with those sentiments, that each person was a sovereign entity, answerable only to himself and the laws of the society in which he lived - laws which were not meant to be restrictive but to provide a framework that everyone could use to ensure fairness amongst all.

But, of course, people are people and that very concept of personal freedom is too easily thrown away by people who think "it isn't fair." And people being people they will try to find ways around the laws. Instead of making people personally responsible, the trend for the last century or so in the US has been to make the government responsible for their well-being beyond enforcing laws. Why? Because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. People tend to take things to far for "everyone's good." Things that start out well-meaning can steamroll into a huge, heavy burden that flattens all in its path.

Indeed, there have been many capitalist rapists that have given capitalism a bad name. But look back at history and see how that happened. Look at any monopoly, for example, and you will find that it can't exist without government (or authoritative) support. Also, people talk about the horrors of child labor in the preceding century or so and point as that to one of the "horrors" of capitalism.

The fact is, the US a century or so ago was a lot like many of the South American countries today as far as standard of living goes, for the poor. My grandmother describes life very much like what I've seen amongst the poor in Paraguay - the difference being the work ethic and other cultural points of pride that led to improving life rather than accepting it. My wife's family start working from the time they are old enough to walk and carry things. They work in the fields, the work in the house, when they get old enough they start looking for other jobs to do outside the family to try to bring in money.

The truth is, they would LOVE to have a steady factory around the corner where the older kids could go work to earn real money instead of slaving in the fields and, for example, watching the rains or the bugs take their crop, or a lack of water because they have no pump to get water out of their well, etc.

Life was a lot like that a century or more in the States. People today tend to look back and think of life then in terms of their life now and can't imagine how anyone could let their kids work in a factory, for god's sake! How terrible! But very, very few people in the States in more "modern" times ever had to scratch a living in the soil at a subsistence level. Times were very different and the industrial revolution and capitalism provided one step up for the poor, a step that many Paraguayans would welcome now, in this day and age, but they don't have.

We have moved beyond that in the States. When I was younger, it was much easier to get started in a business, to find a job, etc. As an entrepreneur in the last decade plus, I found it increasingly more difficult, expensive and downright painful to do business in the States, to the point where I came down here to take advantage of far cheaper labor costs that even with taxes that had to be paid and other issues, I could make far more money hiring programmers here than I could there. I, and many like me, are being driven out of the US.

We are called unpatriotic, globalists, other unsavory names. We should put up with all the crap that the government has decided to lay on top of us and be glad that we, who are taking the risks and spending our own capital and sweating our asses off to make something, should pay high taxes and jump through idiotic hoops as an inefficient government tries to control things on a smaller and smaller scale.

Instead, if people in general took responsibility for their lives, held the political world responsible for its corruption and greed, and brought government to a point where it served us ALL by remaining out of our lives except to enforce true laws of fairness, we wouldn't need a Nanny State to take care of us.

That's my opinion, and that of a LOT of people. In fact, if the federal government wasn't so strong and oppressive, each state could decide for itself what it wanted to do and there could various experiments in how economies and laws work. Instead, we are stuck with a one-size-fits-all solution that has created a lot of unhappiness on both sides, and something has to give.

I say, everyone has a right to his or her opinion on the best way to do things. I'm not saying my way is better for everyone - it's almost certainly not. Neither is the Conservative or Liberal way. But we are stuck with a system that pushes the current fad onto all, with no hope of trying something really different because the faceless masses that run through the elected offices, and the even more nameless and faceless masses that are the bureaucracy generated by greed, selfishness and I-know-what's-best-for-everyone ensure that that will never happen. Once in power, always in power.

The US will be second or third world before too long. Others in the world will rise and fall as well, no one really heeding the call of logic when it comes to self-governing.
 
People are naturally optimistic. Whenever there are economic problems, people instinctively ask, "What is the government going to do to fix this." And even with of the tragic examples of government fixes from Weimar Germany to Argentina to Greece today, people are optimistic that government can fix the problem. Certainly a little more education on Business, Economics and Finance in school would help but this cycle of politicians making grand promises of free lunches and borrowing money until things go bust seems to be never ending...
 
I think El Queso nailed it! This is my experience with many, though I know some native Argentines that really have a good understanding of economics--most of those, however, have lived many years outside Argentina at some point in their lives. But for many this is what I hear, to quote El Queso, "Poor and feel no hope to get ahead, and blame evil capitalists, think Peron is great but . . . . . . ," In my acquantances, this is the majority opinion. They have it exactly backwards. Many seem to feel helpless and defeated when I think that actually they aren't. Well defeated, maybe yes. But not helpless. But with a paralyzed mind, truly this is the case. They rejoice over new regulations or benefits and have no clue the fallout from those benefits that is to their detriment.

But I don't criticize them, I CARE about them. And it has taken a long time for me to get it myself and I'm still learning. I don't point fingers! And by the way, GREAT discussion. Thanks for all of your input.
 
Well I can't seem to leave the subjct. Frenchie said that Argentina went to smuggling in order to survive. Why would they have to indulge in smuggling to "survive." Argentina is a naturally very wealthy country. This is what really gets to me. People should be producing stuff and benefitting. They have so much to work with here. I am surprised smuggling was necessary to "survive." Also why would only a very few be so incredibly wealthy? There's a reason for that. It might be in the thinking of the people--or maybe other reasons (government??? But we're talking a lot time ago right now). I do notice among the moaners here, everybody talks about how hard to get a job. It's like few (none) think in terms of looking for ways to make money--I do mean other than the entrepreneurs who lift wallets on the subte. ;) But then my circle of acquaintances is a small sample compared to the entire country. But I look for keys to understanding all of this.

I sure would like to see the economics meetings continue. My idea is to move out of the big city eventually or I think I'd work on helping to organize it myself. I know everyone is SO busy! It would be good for even Argentines to attend. Or so I think anyway. Economics seems to me to be basic to everything!
 
I think El Queso nailed it! This is my experience with many, though I know some native Argentines that really have a good understanding of economics--most of those, however, have lived many years outside Argentina at some point in their lives. But for many this is what I hear, to quote El Queso, "Poor and feel no hope to get ahead, and blame evil capitalists, think Peron is great but . . . . . . ," In my acquantances, this is the majority opinion. They have it exactly backwards. Many seem to feel helpless and defeated when I think that actually they aren't. Well defeated, maybe yes. But not helpless. But with a paralyzed mind, truly this is the case. They rejoice over new regulations or benefits and have no clue the fallout from those benefits that is to their detriment.

But I don't criticize them, I CARE about them. And it has taken a long time for me to get it myself and I'm still learning. I don't point fingers! And by the way, GREAT discussion. Thanks for all of your input.


Interesting twist to this thread and very interesting posts from the bigcheese, citygirl and Arlean as usual. I feel very divided on the subject of wealth and social responsibility and conscience. On the one hand as the first child to go to university in my working class family I have worked my ass off to be at this point of owning a multimillion dollar business. At the same time I believe luck played a part in that. It was the marriage of my work ethic, intelligence and destiny that has led to my success and I genuinely believe that not all people get to have the same luck. I can understand how that resentment of wealth can arise and the feelings of injustice and desperation that cause people to steal as a result. In an ideal world there would be compulsory and good basic education for all to allow us to make informed decisions on our futures. Dreaming I know. ..
 
Well I can't seem to leave the subjct. Frenchie said that Argentina went to smuggling in order to survive. Why would they have to indulge in smuggling to "survive." Argentina is a naturally very wealthy country.

I believe French was referring to the origins of Buenos Aires which, being under Spanish rule, was for a time prohibited from trading with Portugal and even trading within the Spanish empire was restricted and taxed. From what I've read, most of the smuggling activity occurred in Tigre and further north in the delta. However, being the largest settlement on this side of the river, Buenos Aires was the source and destination of most of the goods being smuggled.
 
I agree with citygirl that it is inaccurate and obsolete to use the phrase "third-world country" describe Argentina. The question is whether Argentina is a developed or a developing country. I think that the reason we are having this discussion is that visitors from developed countries experience a certain disillusionment with Buenos Aires, which to all appearances is a cosmopolitan city--wonderful buildings, parks, museums, theaters, and a world-class opera house. But there is a much bigger city beyond the narrow strip along the Rio de la Plata that most tourists see, and there is a very big country beyond the Capital Federal. And once you've spent a little time in the Capital Federal, the cracks in the facade begin to appear.

Some of the posts here have pointed out some of those cracks. Literally, they can be seen in the infamous sidewalks. (A young Argentine I met here rhapsodized about the sidewalks of Chicago.) And one could go on forever with complaints about this or that. Frankly, I could go on forever complaining about my own wonderful town of New York, New York, a city so nice they named it twice. But this sort of crybaby exercise is not much to the point, because one can always find trivial faults. And when I do have complaints about this or that, I recall that if Argentina weren't slightly dysfunctional, it would be more like France or Spain and I couldn't afford to live here.

I came to Buenos Aires because I cannot afford health care in the U.S. I have a membership with Hospital Alemán that costs US$250 per month. If I became seriously ill, I have every confidence that the hospital would take care of me as well as an American hospital would. I could also not pay for health care and rely on the public hospitals, which are very good here.

I also chose Buenos Aires because it was the first city in Latin America to recognize same-sex marriage, which is recognized now throughout Argentina.

In a way, Argentina resembles Italy: Argentines and Italians can be highly educated and extraordinarily good at what they do. But they have societies and governments that appear dysfunctional to outsiders. Italy also has the scourge of organized crime, which accounts for a fourth of the economy, by one estimate. Argentina has the scourge of peronist politicians and gremialistas who perform the functions of organized crime, taking a cut of every deal. I will say, however, that I have not heard Cristina accused of killing anyone; she simply freezes out her opponents. So she is not a thug like Putin or various other world leaders (like Barack Obama, who is proud to say he killed Osama bin Ladin, which is maybe not such a bad thing, depending on one's point of view). If Cristina was going to kill someone, it would have been Cobos, but I understand he is alive and well.

I also find that the Argentines I know are very well aware of their country's shortcomings and don't need expats to point them out. The troubling thing, for me, is that these same Argentines seem so dispirited and unwilling to confront the problems. If they are young, under 40, they think about leaving. If they are older, they are just resigned to things as they are. In the U.S., the last elections validated Obamacare and same-sex marriage. These are things that Americans have been fighting for since Peron was in prison. The first U.S. gay-rights organizations were established after World War II. It usually takes a while for societies to change. But in Argentina, there is no widespread critique of the ills of peronism (there is an opposition, but it is disorganized, and many of the opponents to Cristina's government consider themselves peronistas). I am no authority on Argentine history and politics, but I have a read a little, and I was alive (in New York) at the time of the "dirty war," which I read about in the Times. From my liberal bias, Argentina needs to steer a course between the populism of K and the idiocy of the dictaduras and various oligarquías that have ruled in the past. But it is for Argentines to decide.

There are many good examples close at hand. Chile and Uruguay are ranked next to the U.S. in Transparency International's ranking of countries by perceived corruption. They are in the Top 30 of least-corrupt countries. Argentina, by contrast, is ranked around 100, behind some African countries. Brazil, as I recall, is ranked 55 or so. And Dilma Rousseff is working hard to push that ranking lower. If these neighbors can transform themselves, why not the Argentines? (Argentine exceptionalism, the opposite of American exceptionalism, is based on the notion that Argentines are the worst people in the world. "We can't do it because we are Argentine.") I think they can do it, but change won't happen overnight.

The last dictatorship ended only 30 years ago. Half the population were teenagers or adults in that time and remember it. The fiscal crisis of 2002 is only a decade in the past. I sense a lack of trust in porteño society. When people complain about Cristina (and I think she has made some awful decisions and is narcissistic to an unusual degree, even for a politician), I recall that she and Nestor earned some trust by having managed to grow the economy for eight or nine years--a pretty good run. Now the economy is faltering, and Cristina will lose--is losing--some of the faith that people have in her. But she could change course. Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to be a good listener, and the toadies who surround her are not about to throw cold water on her failed economic policies.

Many of the Argentines I know have expressed a wish to live in a "real country." It won't be a real country with a lot of wishful souls looking for an exit visa. It will take courage and reason and patience. I look forward to seeing what will happen in the next 20 years, if I live that long.
 
Interesting twist to this thread and very interesting posts from the bigcheese, citygirl and Arlean as usual. I feel very divided on the subject of wealth and social responsibility and conscience. On the one hand as the first child to go to university in my working class family I have worked my ass off to be at this point of owning a multimillion dollar business. At the same time I believe luck played a part in that. It was the marriage of my work ethic, intelligence and destiny that has led to my success and I genuinely believe that not all people get to have the same luck. I can understand how that resentment of wealth can arise and the feelings of injustice and desperation that cause people to steal as a result. In an ideal world there would be compulsory and good basic education for all to allow us to make informed decisions on our futures. Dreaming I know. ..

FWIW - I completely agree with you about accidents of birth playing a huge part in being successful. I was born to a family who had access to good medical/prenatal care, to educated parents who priortized education, great schools that had up to date equipment, I didn't have to worry about a roof over my head, etc. The groundwork was all there for me through luck of the draw if you will. Not everyone has that and I would agree that the best thing is to work towards creating a more equal society (through education natch).


And don't get me wrong. I do think it's important for those more successful to lend a hand to those struggling. To me, it's logical on a two-fold basis. One - I believe it's part and parcel of the moral life to help those struggling to get ahead, be it by donating time, money, tutoring, what have you. Second - from a purely pragmatic point of view - the more educated and successful people there are, the better off the system works. Those people will start their own companies, create jobs, infuse money into the economy, create competition that drives consumer benefits and are, in the end, not a drain on the system.

So it's hardly that I advocate driving by them in my car, flashing jewelry and laughing at the poor!

But shrug - no matter what your economic circumstances, stealing from another is never justified IMO.
 
A trip down el camino del Buen Ayre will show you a more third world side... the pot holes, the unpaved roads in the villas, the villas themselves, the trash everywhere, the complete disregard for the environment. :p

The wealth gap is rather noticeable in Argentina... the "middle class" might as well be rich compared to the true average/median worker (at least once you get outside of Recoleta and Palermo.) And certain members of the 'hiring class' don't ease things. There's this attitude on both sides of trying to get the upper hand - and they're rather shameless about it. Integrity... honesty... that's for boludos. Nobody really trusts anybody and you can't trust because this "pulling-one-over-on-you" drive is so strong it defies logic sometimes. Problem is they think they're so smart, but they're just cheating themselves.

I think it would be very hard to change the culture here. There's a lot of good people, but keeping with the status quo is just easier. And how can things change if the people keep electing leaders based on short term promises and solutions? The go-to solution for just about everything is a cheap quick fix... and that's not how you get things done or improve. Not sure what it would take to get this country on the right track... people seem content to just roll with the booms and busts. Everyone wants a better country but nobody really wants to sacrifice to work towards it. I can't say I blame them completely - the task seems daunting and it's natural to look after you and yours first especially if you don't trust who's at the helm.
 
If you're in country where...

-You could be run over by a car because the driver was on the phone or looking elsewhere while turning the corner.
-Bus drivers stop at a crossroad to have a lengthy chat with each another or leave bus to buy cigarettes.
-Bus driver smoking when there is a notice saying that smoking is forbidden for passengers AND driver.
-Bus driver passionately chatting with a friend while driving in city forgetting he's got the life of 30 people in his hands.
-Bus dangerously stuffed with passengers and driver lets more passengers in saying "un paso atrás por favor"?!
-Bus usually overtake cars, no the other way around.
-It's perfectly normal that a well dressed person approaches you saying "with all respect, can you give 50 pesos?"
-The mistake is always of the other and if no other is left, the fault is of the government; I've got nothing to do with it.
-Common sense has disappeared.
-Young mothers smoking in the face of their young children.
-Do you want to complain about something? Grab a stick and go block the main avenue, Monday 9AM.
-Government, opposition parties and syndicates play at "who can gather more people on the public place" because that's the way to "prove" they're right, not by debate, reason and certainly not by common sense.
-people say "thanks" and "Sorry", too often to be genuine.

...Then you'd better leave if you want to keep your sanity.
 
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