Argentina isn't the cheapest

[Lanick]

I know people living in another SA country, they were happy but when they had visited BsAs, they were amazed at the life style BsAs offered and how much it would cost. They live in Belgrano now! . I don’t know any place on the planet where I can have my PT session in a fab gym in the morning then have a nice coffee before meeting my amazing coach to play tennis on a Roland Garros quality court and then have some nice lunch. Go home rest a little and go out for a round of golf, have my apero with my buddies before ending the day going to a Peruvian cebicheria (real deal fine dining) and spend for all those less than USD 70. Hard to believe, but true! I can itemise if anyone doesn’t believe.

 

[Big Swifty]

I can understand when Argentines (or natives to whatever country is being discussed) complain about prices and cost of living, but as expats we are far more able to choose to live here and are likely better able to choose to live somewhere else if we truly find things to be too expensive, too 'dangerous,' or too anything we don't really like. Much more so than a person born here, perhaps without marketable skills and/or the financial means necessary to do so. Sure, a bit of complaining is human nature, but if we truly don't like it we can leave. We've all left at least one country to go reside in another that we believed would be more favorable, so we can do it again.

 

[sergio]

To those on the upper rungs of the socio-economic ladder, this sounds fine, no doubt. But for those on the lower reaches of that allegorical ladder, including seniors, this could be very, very hard.

Also, I quite frankly don't give a damn how they do it in Europe. If anything, I would take Europe as a negative example. And Borrell can stuff his "garden" right up his fourth point of contact.

Rate from 1 to 10 all the items below for Buenos Aires v/s other cities. BA comes always on top for me (I speak Spanish) . Give it a Try . My rating for Thailand would be perhaps a Total of 40- For me Argentina rates above Portugal or Malta.

Buenos Aires Rating /My choices /Try yours

1. Language 10
2. Culture 8
3. Cosmopolitan city 8
4. Health system 8
5. Connectivity 8
6. Weather 8
7. School system 8
8. Ethnicity 9
9. Migration Policies 9
10. Cost of Living 10
11. Total 85

It's worse than that. When the Euro arrived, prices jumped like you say, but after that one-off event there was no inflationary tendency, since small denomination Euro coins were available, and exact prices could be set, paid, and exact change given.

When you dollarize, those small-denomination coins don't exist, just fragile, short-lived Dollar bills. So after a few months nobody has change, and prices are rounded up to the nearest 5 or 10 Dollars. This is my experience with both Ecuador (formal) and Venezuela (informal) dollarization. It will not be different here. Oh, and to make it even worse, official inflation won't catch this, since it measures the published prices, not the rounded-up prices. It's a lose-lose proposition.

I remember in Panama they used dollars but had their own coins

 

[Redpossum]

I remember in Panama they used dollars but had their own coins

Orly? How did that work? Did they assign arbitrary values in US cents to the Panamanian coins, similar to what was done in the UK with the old shilling coins after decimalization?

I'm not saying UK coins ever had values in US dollars, simply comparing the manner in which two coins from the older system were assigned arbitrary values of 25 and 50 new pence.

 

[FrankPintor]

That's really interesting Frank. That's for pointing this out. Did you live in Ecuador during this time of transition? What do you think it would have done if they didn't dollarize? Better or worse? Thanks for your intelligent thoughts.

No, I really don't need that much excitement in my life, I arrived in Ecuador some time after the transition, like 15 years or so, for the last part of Correa's mandate. In time for the 2016 7.8 earthquake in Esmeraldas All the dollarization was long since done, nobody even commented on it anymore.

Some of the economic indicators in Ecuador at the time (2000) seem to have been similar here: inflation around 100% p.a. and high unemployment. However, Ecuador had also defaulted on its debt, and frozen bank savings, as well as having several banks collapse. They dollarized out of desperation.

Since then Ecuador had two sovereign defaults, and has gone back to the IMF for funding. I worked there during the first part of Lenin Moreno's mandate (very nice person, his daughter lived in the same building in Guayaquil as me). Correa receives a lot of criticism, but his heavy hand did supress a lot of petty corruption and made the government services run efficiently. No traffic police shakedowns in his time. He also revoked everyone's driving license and obliged them to retake their driving tests (something Argentina should do). I had hopes of staying longer in Ecuador (I had an amazing lifestlye ) but once Correa left the economy just stagnated, none of the projects I was looking at got off the ground, employees in tech had to accept fewer job perks (effectively pay cuts).Some of what I saw isn't reflected in official statistics, I heard a lot of complaints about people not finding work (and a lot of comments about Ecuadoreans being made redundant and being replaced by better motivated Venezuelan migrants). And, of course, prices were high, not for basic stuff like food, that was always cheap and very high quality, but for housing, rents, electrical and electronic goods. I was paying USD 1750 for a 2-bedroom apartment (admittedly a very nice apartment, where the "pelucones" live in Samborondon, but it's not cheap). Nobody had change, there were some coins that served as Dollar change, but I guess after 15 years they were becoming scarce. Occasionally a 1 Dollar bill might turn up. But generally, if my taxi cost USD 7 or 8 in the evening, I would pay 10. And so on for any small cash transaction. Lunch at a "hueca", something from the breakfast kiosk, coconut water from the vendor, something from the vegetable / fruit shop, all rounded up to the nearest USD 5, and nothing captured by the official statistics. It would affect more poorer people than me who weren't in the banking system and made small purchases as they went.

 

[arvest]

Orly? How did that work? Did they assign arbitrary values in US cents to the Panamanian coins, similar to what was done in the UK with the old shilling coins after decimalization?

I'm not saying UK coins ever had values in US dollars, simply comparing the manner in which two coins from the older system were assigned arbitrary values of 25 and 50 new pence.

Panama still has their own coins. They're called Balboas. Balboas are 1:1 with USD. So folks use USD cash but Balboa coins which I assume are minted locally by the Panamanian govt so they aren't importing quarters and dimes from the US

 

[earlyretirement]

No, I really don't need that much excitement in my life, I arrived in Ecuador some time after the transition, like 15 years or so, for the last part of Correa's mandate. In time for the 2016 7.8 earthquake in Esmeraldas All the dollarization was long since done, nobody even commented on it anymore.

Some of the economic indicators in Ecuador at the time (2000) seem to have been similar here: inflation around 100% p.a. and high unemployment. However, Ecuador had also defaulted on its debt, and frozen bank savings, as well as having several banks collapse. They dollarized out of desperation.

Since then Ecuador had two sovereign defaults, and has gone back to the IMF for funding. I worked there during the first part of Lenin Moreno's mandate (very nice person, his daughter lived in the same building in Guayaquil as me). Correa receives a lot of criticism, but his heavy hand did supress a lot of petty corruption and made the government services run efficiently. No traffic police shakedowns in his time. He also revoked everyone's driving license and obliged them to retake their driving tests (something Argentina should do). I had hopes of staying longer in Ecuador (I had an amazing lifestlye ) but once Correa left the economy just stagnated, none of the projects I was looking at got off the ground, employees in tech had to accept fewer job perks (effectively pay cuts).Some of what I saw isn't reflected in official statistics, I heard a lot of complaints about people not finding work (and a lot of comments about Ecuadoreans being made redundant and being replaced by better motivated Venezuelan migrants). And, of course, prices were high, not for basic stuff like food, that was always cheap and very high quality, but for housing, rents, electrical and electronic goods. I was paying USD 1750 for a 2-bedroom apartment (admittedly a very nice apartment, where the "pelucones" live in Samborondon, but it's not cheap). Nobody had change, there were some coins that served as Dollar change, but I guess after 15 years they were becoming scarce. Occasionally a 1 Dollar bill might turn up. But generally, if my taxi cost USD 7 or 8 in the evening, I would pay 10. And so on for any small cash transaction. Lunch at a "hueca", something from the breakfast kiosk, coconut water from the vendor, something from the vegetable / fruit shop, all rounded up to the nearest USD 5, and nothing captured by the official statistics. It would affect more poorer people than me who weren't in the banking system and made small purchases as they went.

Thanks for posting all of that great info! It gives some good insights. This is what this forum is all about. Love reading these true life stories.

 

[FrankPintor]

Panama still has their own coins. They're called Balboas. Balboas are 1:1 with USD. So folks use USD cash but Balboa coins which I assume are minted locally by the Panamanian govt so they aren't importing quarters and dimes from the US

Panama isn't really a case in dollarization, if I understand correctly the Balboa and the Dollar were both made legal tender in the newly independent Panama in 1904. USD banknotes are used (I never saw a Balboa banknote, I don't know if they exist and they solved the coin problem by minting Balboa coins.

 

[Redpossum]

Panama isn't really a case in dollarization, if I understand correctly the Balboa and the Dollar were both made legal tender in the newly independent Panama in 1904. USD banknotes are used (I never saw a Balboa banknote, I don't know if they exist and they solved the coin problem by minting Balboa coins.

Still, it's a much more palatable solution than charging a minimum price of 5 dollars for everything, that's bullshit, and exactly the sort of price inflation which I fear will result here in Argentina.

Personally, I'd rather see Argentina mint its own silver "dollars", but that's never going to happen, given silver is up to 23 bucks, (which is a hard indicator of just how badly the USD has deteriorated over the years). Even a 1/4 ounce coin would contain 6 bucks worth of silver at that rate.

I posted about this before, but even old Morgans and Walking Liberty's seem to be unobtainium here

 

[antipodean]

Orly? How did that work? Did they assign arbitrary values in US cents to the Panamanian coins, similar to what was done in the UK with the old shilling coins after decimalization?

Panama is essentially bi-monetary.
The national official currency is the Balboa (PAB) since 1904. This is pegged to the USD 1:1 by government decision.
Panama only issues coins from B/$0.01 up to B/$1. No banknotes.
Panama has never had a central bank - which is fairly unique as it does have its own currency unlike say Andorra, Tuvalu or Monaco. The government does have an organism that regulates the banking sector however.
The USD also has status as an official currency - "uso legal" vs "curso legal".
Individuals and businesses can choose in which currency they hold accounts, loans, contracts etc - although by default most products are in USD except when dealing with state owned banks or government entities when it will almost always be done in PAB (incase one day they ever decide to unpeg the current exchange rate, as is the country's right.)
If you sign up for a PAB credit/ bank card, when you go to use it in the USA you can expect to see foreign currency fees.

As far as banknotes goes, USD is universally accepted as it is 1:1 and there is no other alternative in wide circulation. With the PAB coins, there is always exact change to be had - think I still have a little bag full of it somewhere.