The deal with Argentine men and their "girl" friends

[Johnno]

I'm only into my second week back here - and my last visit was pretty short - although this time round I intend to stay a lot longer

For me the whole thing is pretty simple - I'm a guest in this country so I need to learn to adapt to the people and place - not the other way around

That doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with the way everything is done here - and it doesn't mean I like everything here - but at the end of the day I chose to come here so its up to me to adapt...

To be honest - there are a lot of things about Argentina that I really *do* like (or else I wouldn't be here anyway - there is a lot more freedom here in many ways - the people still now how to enjoy life and make the most out of what they have - and they really seem to have this amazing character - they seem to be able to handle whatever life throws at them and then they just stand up, dust themselves off and keep on going... I can respect that...

Anyway - after I've taken Spanish lessons for a year and feel like I've really settled down I'll probably have a better idea of things - but for me right now this is my ''two pesos worth''...

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Well, the problem is to take a "ethical perfeccionism" attitude. Sound like you are doing that.

If you are interested about what the hell is it, read this book of an Argentinian philosofer who influenced a lot to change our society during the 80´s after the dictatorship.

http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...1B89547F4.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=3059020

Regards

 

[STELLA53]

Conversely, I would love to see the U.S. adopt some of the more enlightened cultural values and mores found in Argentina: A meal where waiters are not trying to turn over tables every 27 minutes, the art of conversation over a meal (sobre mesa), civil discourse over politics or religion or other highly charged topics (where even when there is disagreement, even spirited disagreement it is possible to walk away friends), and so forth....

None of this to disagree with your post,...rather,to suggest there are some aspects of Argentine society that are superior to prevailing norms in my homeland.

Yes, every society has some distinctive "good" and "bad" features. The ability to nurse a coffee undisturbedly in a local cafe is nice though I am not so sure many coffee house/cafes, not restaurants, in the US, Europe, Asia would be so much different. Likewise, I don't wholeheartedly endorse the "sobre mesa" distinction you seek to draw. One's knack for table conversation is portable and the people I eat with do it better or worse without regard to nationality. Do you think the "art" of BA table conversation is inherently more developed? Is it possibly more accentuated for you because of the influence of your expat status or the stage in your life?
There are one or two Argentine norms I would like to see the US adopt. One is the civility with which strangers address each other. Another is the prevalence of organized labor. Okay, there are abuses here, but I think the pendulum has swung too far in the wrong direction in the US.

 

[John.St]

1. Can you cite some of the scientific literature to which you refer to support the referenced hardwiring ?
2. How do you square this hardwiring with the generally accepted fact that as women mature they get more hormone-related sexual drive whereas men's sex drive generally dissipates as they age and often peaks in their early 20s.

1. No. My library is in Europa and I am in Argentina. Besides, I read an untold number of scientific articles a year and it is impossible to store more than a small proportion of them. But I remember the conclusions.

2. The most common (and probably correct) explanation is that the closer a woman is to her menopause, the faster her biological clock is ticking and the stronger the sex drive, because she is nearing the end of her reproductive life.

Edit: I did find a couple of reasonably related links in my bookmarks:

"... especially as men have consistently shown a preference for attractive young women"
http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/technology/menopause-eases-sex-rivalry-1.423972

"The male volunteers were asked to rate the women for attractiveness purely on the basis of the sound of their voice. ... a finding in line with the previous research which suggests that higher voice tones are associated with youth and fertility in women."
http://services.inquirer.net/print/print.php?article_id=20080206-117096

"... Thus, men who prefer to mate with blond women are unconsciously attempting to mate with younger (and hence, on average, healthier and more fecund) women."
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/ten-politically-incorrect-truths-about-human-nature

"In societies where rich men are much richer than poor men, women (and their children) are better off sharing the few wealthy men; one-half, one-quarter, or even one-tenth of a wealthy man is still better than an entire poor man"

"When there is resource inequality among men—the case in every human society—most women benefit from polygyny: women can share a wealthy man."
http://www.psychologytoday.com/arti...ly-incorrect-truths-about-human-nature?page=2

"a more typical 50-year-old man .... When he buys a shiny-red sports car, he's not trying to regain his youth; he's trying to attract young women to replace his menopausal wife by trumpeting his flash and cash."
http://www.psychologytoday.com/arti...ly-incorrect-truths-about-human-nature?page=4

 

[John.St]

Yes and no. I am not an ethical relativist so I think there is a wrong and a right which can be applied to human and social behavior. It is not always a matter of black and white - there are often a myriad shades of grey in any given situation/norm, but that doesn't mean one should not strive to do the right thing on a personal and social level.
For example, we often hear "when in Rome, do as the Romans." This may be okay for the cultural relativists, but unlike the golden rule, it is not a recipe for right and proper conduct (though it might be fitting in a survival guide). Romans threw Christians to the lions, a conduct to which I do not subscribe (and one can only wonder in amazement how depraved Roman citizens were to celebrate such conduct).

I do not want to throw Christians to the lions today even if I am in a place where it is done. I will vote against it if given a chance or demonstrate and protest such a practice. I may engage in civil disobedience or in even harsher methods if circumstances justify it. Even if I remain acquiescent, I do not "respect" such offensive mores that are not just or fair, that do not respect the humanity of all, even the less wealthy, the less successful, the less capable, the less male, the less white, and the less straight.

Accordingly, and contrary Bajo_cero2's jingoistic demands written above, it is not ridiculous to seek to implement change even if I am a foreigner. In fact, I do it although with respect to mores less significant and deep-rooted than the sexual dating patterns of Argentine 30 somethings and teenager girls. I do it when I take the time to sanely criticize an errant driver who refuses to give the pedestrian the lawful right of way, to people who inconsiderately smoke in crowded places, to debate with my Argentine friends who complacently acccept the political status quo as if it were inevitable. Small things, to be sure, but things that do contravene local customs and which reflect a lack of respect for local mores.

Don't get me wrong. I am not an ideal person. Far from it as my husband will attest. I just happen to think we all have a responsibility to act in an enlightend, ethical manner consistent with evolvng notions of civilized behavior. To me, the terms ethical relativism and cultural relativism are euphemistic synonyms for an anti-humanistic abandonment of sound ethics.

Are you by any chance using your own personal standards, which you have been taught are "right"?

In some cultures sexual relationships out of wedlock is taught to be completely wrong.

In some cultures homosexuality is taught to be totally wrong.

In parts of a certain country you are not allowed to drink alcohol before the age of 21 but you can be sent to war to kill and get killed at the age of 18.

etc., etc., etc.

Assuming no objective harm is done:

How do you know what is good and bad morals?
How do you know what is right and wrong?
How do you know what constitutes offensive mores?
How do you know what constitutes sound ethics?

Are you using your own personal standards, which you have been taught are "right"?

BTW: Do you know why a girl's 15th birthday is celebrated the way it is in Latin America?
Because at 15 she is old enough to marry.

 

[lejohnson]

Viewing Abortion as a means of birth control is denying the reality of the situation. It is assuming that all pregnancies result from consensual sex which is simply not true.

Also, I work in human rights and NO ONE believes that abortion is a human right. Because it's not. Simply. However, the right birth control in order to assure that women have a choice in family planning and protection from STDs and the right to sexual education which enables young women and men to make educated decisions about their sexual HEALTH is a human right. Argentina does not supply any of these rights which is why women and young girls resort to unsafe abortions for many different varied reasons. And by the way these rights are part of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) which is a part of the constitution of Argentina.

It is unjust and wrong to force a woman to have a child that is the result of a traumatic non-consensual sexual assault.

You can check out more TRUTH about reproductive health and rights in Argentina here,
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/08/10/argentina-guarantee-women-s-access-health-care

 

[cabrera]

Viewing Abortion as a means of birth control is denying the reality of the situation. It is assuming that all pregnancies result from consensual sex which is simply not true.

Also, I work in human rights and NO ONE believes that abortion is a human right. Because it's not. Simply. However, the right birth control in order to assure that women have a choice in family planning and protection from STDs and the right to sexual education which enables young women and men to make educated decisions about their sexual HEALTH is a human right. Argentina does not supply any of these rights which is why women and young girls resort to unsafe abortions for many different varied reasons. And by the way these rights are part of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) which is a part of the constitution of Argentina.

It is unjust and wrong to force a woman to have a child that is the result of a traumatic non-consensual sexual assault.

You can check out more TRUTH about reproductive health and rights in Argentina here,
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/08/10/argentina-guarantee-women-s-access-health-care

You are a supporter of abortion this is clear and you try to use some eloquent words to support your position . Tell me Miss Knowledgeable who do 40% or argentian woman abort a new soul. Were they all raped?

In New York the rate for hispanic and black woman is over 50% and all of this is supported for Family planning . In 98% of the cases abortion is a choice and is due to career with no respect for life and rights of the unborn.

http://www.cny.org/stories/Shocking-Statistics,4336

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Viewing Abortion as a means of birth control is denying the reality of the situation. It is assuming that all pregnancies result from consensual sex which is simply not true.

Also, I work in human rights and NO ONE believes that abortion is a human right. Because it's not. Simply. However, the right birth control in order to assure that women have a choice in family planning and protection from STDs and the right to sexual education which enables young women and men to make educated decisions about their sexual HEALTH is a human right. Argentina does not supply any of these rights which is why women and young girls resort to unsafe abortions for many different varied reasons. And by the way these rights are part of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) which is a part of the constitution of Argentina.

It is unjust and wrong to force a woman to have a child that is the result of a traumatic non-consensual sexual assault.

You can check out more TRUTH about reproductive health and rights in Argentina here,
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/08/10/argentina-guarantee-women-s-access-health-care

Abortion is allow in the case of rape but it need legal authorization.
Regarding the other topics you mentioned, they are regulated by law.
Regarding how the implementation works, you can read the anual report of CELS before UN:
http://www.cels.org.ar/common/documentos/informe_2001_cap_5.pdf
Regards

 

[hannstew]

This thread isnt about abortions or the right to do it, whatever the reason is.. Maybe you should start a new thread for that topic.

 

[jp]

In 98% of the cases abortion is a choice and is due to career with no respect for life and rights of the unborn.

And 203.65% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Abortion will always be a divisive subject, so long as there are differences of opinion on whether you can call a cluster of cells "a life".

Back on topic, I think 15 year old girls with 30 something boyfriends is creepy. I wouldn't want to associate with adults who have teenage girlfriends, and its not something I'd want for my own daughter. But if they're old enough to have sex, they're old enough to choose their sexual partners. A 15 year old boy with a 30 year old woman would be creepy, but I somehow doubt people would be as concerned that the boy was being taken advantage of...